trajan Posted 19 August , 2014 Share Posted 19 August , 2014 I've just been looking at a photograph of an army camp at Salonica (no indication as to the identity of the men) apparently in early 1916, and it shows what can only be described as a sinuous snake-like trench line... I'll see if I can get this scanned later, but off-hand does anyone know who might have used such a trench system? TIA for any information! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 19 August , 2014 Share Posted 19 August , 2014 Early 1916 can only mean the "Birdcage" line, dug around the city in anticipation of a Bulgarian invasion which never came - so never actually used in anger. Can you at least tell if the men are British or French? Any conspicuous landscape features? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 August , 2014 Share Posted 19 August , 2014 Contemporary manuals show that British trenches could be curvaceous, especially communications trenches but also as the 2nd diagram shows fire trenches as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2014 I like that 'curvaceous', centurion! I managed to get to a scanner, the photograph being in L'Album de la Guerre 1914-1919, vol II, p.419 of a run of pages detailing events in Salonica, for early 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 August , 2014 Share Posted 19 August , 2014 The lack of wire, parapet, fire step or sand bags might suggest that it's either a communications trench or still a work in progress (as the workers tents would also suggest).. Angular traverses could be a problem if you needed to get long objects like stretchers round them (see diagaram) and a curved trench would still protect against enfilade fire (but would be more difficult to defend if the enemy broke in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2014 And I don't think a curvaceous trench( ) would help much against shell-blast either... Any idea who used this type of lay-out? And why the step on the rear side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 August , 2014 Share Posted 19 August , 2014 And I don't think a curvaceous trench( ) would help much against shell-blast either... Any idea who used this type of lay-out? And why the step on the rear side? Not a step - it's the normal space on the rear that prevents what you've dug out from falling back in again. The pile at the back is more correctly called the reredos and that ledge so formed was often used by men manning a fire trench for mugs of tea, pipes, plates, spare ammo etc. What's missing is a parapet in front. Given that the curved trenches in the figures I've posted are from British and American manuals I'd say that the British and Americans used them sometimes. I suspect that a curved trench was quicker to create than a more formal type and would allow faster movement along it and so there would be circumstances when it might be applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2014 Not a step - it's the normal space on the rear that prevents what you've dug out from falling back in again. The pile at the back is more correctly called the reredos and that ledge so formed was often used by men manning a fire trench for mugs of tea, pipes, plates, spare ammo etc. What's missing is a parapet in front. Given that the curved trenches in the figures I've posted are from British and American manuals I'd say that the British and Americans used them sometimes. I suspect that a curved trench was quicker to create than a more formal type and would allow faster movement along it and so there would be circumstances when it might be applicable. I get it, a safety berm... By parapet do you mean what I would call a counterscarp bank? A sloped raised mound running along the front of the trench? There is certainly something higher there, a raised bank above the ledge which I assume is for resting(?) elbows and rifle butts on when in a firing position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 August , 2014 Share Posted 19 August , 2014 I get it, a safety berm... By parapet do you mean what I would call a counterscarp bank? A sloped raised mound running along the front of the trench? There is certainly something higher there, a raised bank above the ledge which I assume is for resting(?) elbows and rifle butts on when in a firing position. See The Reredos could also be called the Parados Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 19 August , 2014 Share Posted 19 August , 2014 The same photo is in the French archives at culture.gouv.fr where its caption is as follows:Les premières lignes fortifiées construites par Sarrail (décembre 1915). Les lignes sinueuses des tranchées qui forment une série ininterrompue de demi-cercles présentant successivement leur convexité et leur concavité à l'ennemi. http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/memoire/1505/sap40_or030512_p.jpg From the same series, some French chaps digging one...http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/memoire/1505/sap40_or030513_p.jpg and Sarrail and Régnault inspecting one...http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/memoire/1505/sap40_or030509_p.jpg The lower Vardar was the sector of the French 122nd Division. The divisional JMO no longer exists, but there might be some maps in the Brigade diaries (8th and 243rd Brigades) at memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr - I'll have a look tomorrow... The JMOs of 57th and 156th Divisions and their constituent units contain some very nice maps of their sectors in the Birdcage line, but I don't recall finding much about 122nd Div unfortunately. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2014 See... Thank you centurion! Cleared that one up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2014 and Sarrail and Régnault inspecting one... http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/memoire/1505/sap40_or030509_p.jpg Thanks Adrian, This one is from the same page and source - L'Album - and shows the same officers in the background. Is this in the French Archives also? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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