roughdiamond Posted 18 August , 2014 Share Posted 18 August , 2014 Has been named in todays papers as the "Black and Tans" member who shot and killed the Grandfather of "Mrs Browns Boys" actor/writer Brendan O'Carroll, it's a claim made when he's shown a "statement from the 50's by an IRA spy" for this weeks WDYTYA. Capt Hardy's Wiki page shows him as "DSO, MC and Bar" and claims he was "2nd Bn Inniskilling Fusiliers" when he earned the MC, the LG https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30950/supplement/12075 lists him as "Connaught Rangers" as does his MIC, no mention of Inniskilling Fusiliers. I found an LG entry for the Bar to his MC as Capt Jocelyn Lee Hardy MC 2nd Bn Conn. Rang. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31759/supplement/1229 amongst a list of men awarded for "Escaping or trying to escape captivity" from 02/02/1920. I also found an LG memoranda https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31854/supplement/4219 showing "Capt J. L. Hardy MC on ceasing to be employed by the M.I. Directorate 1st April 1920" dated 06/04/1920 then another entry https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31936/supplement/6437 dated 08/06/1920 for "Capt J. L. Hardy DSO., MC., Conn Rang" for being "Brought to the attention of the Secretary of State". Yet in the intervening period I can't find a DSO entry, so does anyone know if he served with the "Skins", why he was awarded the DSO and when? As for the claim at the start of my post, I wonder if it was a case of blame the bogey man. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 18 August , 2014 Share Posted 18 August , 2014 Hi Sam, You may have seen this thread but the last post on the first page mentions him being transferred to the 2nd Inniskillins. I note he was on Michael Collins' assassination list for Bloody Sunday - and was not at home! What a story. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 18 August , 2014 Share Posted 18 August , 2014 You could save your self a bit of research, as the makers of the programme did, by reading this page on J L Hardy as the makers of the programme did Always happy to get corrections or additions I would add that there were quite a lot of men "not at home" when the IRA called His DSO if you need it is on LG click I did try to point out to the programme that there were "murder gangs" on both sides, I will be interested to see whether this comes across in the programme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 18 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2014 Hi Corisade Problem is my work computer won't let me access your site though I am aware it exists, will check it later. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 18 August , 2014 Share Posted 18 August , 2014 Corisande, Have just been reading through the Not-the-Cairo-Gang 2008-12 thread - fascinating stuff and definitely an important part of the Great War history. Thought I might start a thread about the 11th man sitting on the ledge behind the Gang - but perhaps not.. Looking forward to the programme. Mike (Grandfather born in Dublin 1888) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 18 August , 2014 Share Posted 18 August , 2014 These things are never straightforward in Ireland. Spin was used by both sides. And murder was used by both sides - using a definition of shooting an unarmed man in cold blood. In the case of Mr O'Carroll's grandfather, it would be wrong to present him only as a 66 year old shopkeeper minding his own business and refusing to give his sons up to the British. If you read his son Liam's WS 314 and WS 594 Liam O'Carroll says My father and his father were members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Through my father, I became associated with the Nationalist Movement. ... We had a fair number of Lee Enfields. We were buying them at that time from British Army men. As a matter of fact, my father bought quite a quantity. He had a shop in Manor Street. These fellows, when they wanted a few drinks, would take anything out of the Barracks. The usual thing was that they would bring a parcel around; and he would give them five shillings in any case; it might be a pair of old boots; it might be two .45's. On one occasion, there was delivered to him a lorry load of petrol in two-gallon tins. Being a bit cynical of journalists, I will be interested to see if they bring that out in the programme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 28 August , 2014 Share Posted 28 August , 2014 Saw the O'Carrol programme and am unsurprised that the BBC gave such a one-sided view of this. WDYTYA was a great programme when it started - giving both paternal and maternal reasons for its purpose, but the BBC has decided to concentrate not just on celebrities (nearly asterisked) but on only one singular political part of their lives. It was sad to see the great actress Julie Walters limited in this way. What was that "document from a Republican"? And how easily they passed through that "tragedy in County Clare" which was the death of two constables.. Easy programming, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pighills Posted 28 August , 2014 Share Posted 28 August , 2014 Easy programming maybe, but it has to appeal to the masses! As to how it was portrayed, I did say to my husband that whilst Brendan was 'hearing' murder by the British army, I was hearing murder by the IRA. You could interpret the evidence either way, depending upon which side you were viewing from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted 28 August , 2014 Share Posted 28 August , 2014 I understood from the programme that Hardy was one of the much feared 'Auxiliaries' - a group of Army officers with war experience, rather than a member of the 'Black and Tans' which did not operate in the Dublin area. Was Hardy ever tried and prosecuted by the Irish authorities? Where is Hardy's grave? Is there a memorial inscription? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 28 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2014 I have a couple of things from tonight's programme that I'd like to highlight but they're more appropriate for Skindles due to the date they happened so I'll start a new thread on there. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penfold Posted 29 August , 2014 Share Posted 29 August , 2014 Here is his profile on 'Lives of The First World War' https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/1555520 Would anyone like to add to it? Is there a photograph that could be added, without copyright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 29 August , 2014 Share Posted 29 August , 2014 Red Cross index card at http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4669025/3/2/ - quite a few references on it to examine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 29 August , 2014 Share Posted 29 August , 2014 The photo in his book shows a Connaught Rangers uniform. As for the Tans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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