7th S.W.B at Doiran

[bb700]

This is my first post so here goes:----

My Grandfather was G.Francis private #15221 South Wales Borderers 7th battalion.

He died in 1946 age 55yrs. My Father was 15yrs old when my Grandfather died so could only remember that he spoke of the Dardennelles. (perhaps he used this area for Salonika as the 7th avoided Gallipoli)

Fact sheet 3-B07-06 from the S.W.B. Museum at Brecon states that " not more than 50 men & 1 officer were left & half suffered from gas" after the attack on DOIRAN.

Information from The Long,Long Trail states only 1 officer & 18 men were alive after the attack.

After the Bulgarians withdrew on the 22nd Sept.the 7th who were now 100 strong after bringing up every available man from the transport lines occupied the Grand Couronne.

My questions are:---

Is there a list of names of the 50 or 18 survivors from the 7th who took part in this attack.

If he was not part of the attack force would he have been in a field hospital or behind the lines as part of transportation. (are there only three options of his whereabouts at this time).

Thanks Mike

[Gardenerbill]

Mike,

If your man was in the 7th SWB he would only have been in a field hospital as a casualty, these were separate units, not sure about transportation lines. From my own experience unless you have a personal diary, your man was mentioned in dispatches/received a medal or he died, you cannot be sure of what part he played in a battle, only that he was there. Have you read 'Under the Devils Eye' by Alan Wakefield and Simon Moody? It has whole chapter on the second battle of Doiran and a detailed description of the 7th SWB attack on the Grande Couronne, if not I recommend you get a copy it is the definitive account of the British Salonika Force.

Have you got his medal index card or service records?

[awakefield]

Hi Mike

You might be interested to know that the Imperial War Museum holds a collection of photographs of the 7th SWB in Macedonia taken by Lt J S Spier (Collection ref: 7908-25). A number of the photos have been digitised and should be available to view online via 'iwm collections search'.

As well as my book 'Under the Devil's Eye' (thanks for the plug Mark) you might be interested to know of the Salonika Campaign Society, which is dedicated to researching the campaign in Macedonia and commemorating those who fought. The SCS also runs battlefield tours out to Macedonia (Greece and FYROM)usually in May and September each year. Doiran is a key site visited and is one of the best preserved FWW battlefields around. Have a look at the Salonika 1915-1918 Facebook page for photos of what can be seen today. The SCS website, which includes membership details, is also worth a look if you have not done so already.

ALAN

[bb700]

Thank you Mr Mark Sheppard & Mr Alan Wakefield for the Info.

I have not seen any medal index card or service record of my Grandfather; the only thing we possess are the Three medals ( Campaign ; 1914-1915 star & Victory medal ) & told by the SWB museum in Brecon that he was in the 7th Battalion.

I will certainly seek out the book `Under The Devils Eye` & check out the IWM photo collection.

Thanks Mike

[Gardenerbill]

Mike,

Have you checked the edge of the medals? Name rank and unit are usually stamped into the edge.

Here is the link to the National archive medal index search:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/medal-index-cards-ww1.htm

[bb700]

Thanks Mr sheppard , the info. I already know is :----G.Francis PTE 15221 S.W.Borderers (stamped on medal edge) & from the SWB Museum at Brecon that he was in the 7th Battalion.

Finding it confusing researching Medal Index Cards as a newcomer but will get there in the end hopefully.

I`ll put a dozen hours in at first to see what unfolds before I wave the White flag.

Thanks Mike ( have appreciated all information sent )

[Gardenerbill]

Something else you could try is a search on Ancestry, but I think you need a bit more personal information e.g. date of birth, full name etc. You can search for free but if you want to view the records you have to register, however you can register for a free 1 month trial. What I did was run a series of searches on the censuses 1901 and 1911, the military service records etc. to see if there was anything of interest. Then registered downloaded all the documents I required and cancelled my subscription before the free month was up.

[FrancesH]

I have posted elsewhere about 2nd Lt Ivor Cochrane (later Lt and Capt) on the site and got nowhere, but may possibly have now found the right location to ask questions. Cochrane left a scrapbook of his war service entitled 'Gallipoli and Salonika' which was sold at auction by Strides of Chichester (W Sussex) in 2008. Strides don't keep records that far back (!) and I've not been able to trace it. However, on we go: he was only at Gallipoli (with 2/SWB) for a short while in September 1915 before getting injured (a grenade went off in his hand - 2/SWB War Diary). I can't seem to find a war diary for 7/SWB at the NA. Is it there, ie am I just being thick? If not can anyone give me some idea about what happened? It appears from reading through this thread that the names of any officers who survived Salonika would be very well known. I have been in touch with the Regimental Museum at Brecon who told me he joined 7/SWB only in November 1918. Um, where would this fit in with the Salonika campaign, about which I know nothing?

Incidentally he died in 1940 from a chronic kidney infection 'acquired through war service' (obituary): I am assuming this came from Salonika, although I suppose he could equally well have acquired it at Gallipoli.

All thoughts and suggestions as always very much appreciated.

[clk]

Hi FrancesH,

The diaries seem to be there, but haven't been digitalised yet http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=7%20south%20wales&_cr1=WO%2095&_hb=tna&search=r

Regards

Chris

[FrancesH]

Hi Chris

Many thanks indeed! I find it baffling that sometimes when one looks for a war diary it comes up immediately and other times it just ... doesn't. But anyway, thanks to you I can proceed.

F

[kenf48]

I have been in touch with the Regimental Museum at Brecon who told me he joined 7/SWB only in November 1918. Um, where would this fit in with the Salonika campaign, about which I know nothing?

On September 30th 1918 Bulgaria surrendered, and a month later the Turks. The 7/(and 8)/SWB did not fire a shot in anger after the 25th September. The two Battalions amalgamated in December 1918 prior to deployment in the Army of Occupation for the countries bordering the Black Sea. Cochrane is not mentioned in the context of the amalgamated Battalion in Atkinson. Atkinson notes the duties of the 7 SWB after the Armistice were 'varied but not particularly exciting '.

Ken

[FrancesH]

Thank you Ken! I do know that the weather conditions weren't great and presumably this would have continued to be the case after the Armistice, so perhaps that's how Cochrane picked up his kidney infection. Most grateful for your cogent summary.

[Keith_history_buff]

On 09/07/2015 at 16:31, FrancesH said:

 I can't seem to find a war diary for 7/SWB at the NA.

 

Hi,

Hard copies of the war diary were available via the museum at Brecon
https://www.facebook.com/royal.welsh.museum/photos/a.1307568786018263/1793839937391143/?type=3&theater

 

Thanks,
Keith

 

[AndrewSid]

Shot in the dark here but does anyone have a copy of the 7th SWB war diary for their time in Salonica?  I’ve visited the National Archives but with the exception of their medical admission/discharges page  the month of September 1918 is absent. This may  be explained by the lack of people to complete it as the CO, Adjutant and pretty much all the officers were either dead, wounded or in Bulgarian captivity after their  attack on the 18th of September.  However their HQ was intact and new officers and recovered from illness officers arrived soon after so the scenario is not to same as those diaries lost in the German spring offensive of 1918. 
 

I’d be great grateful if anyone could confirm if the September diary exists. The museum has sold out of copies before anyone asks. 

[Sgt Stripes]

Bit of information on your grandfather Mike. 15221 G Francis, Driver, 7th SWB admitted malaria transferred to sick convoy 19,5,1917. 15221 G Francis Pte  ambulance train, Impeigo, 27,7,1917, C company C of E age 24. 2years 10 months service, 1 year 10 months in the field. 

Edited 27 October , 2022 by Sgt Stripes

[Keith_history_buff]

George enlisted under Regular terms of short service, for 3 years or the duration of the war, those terms specified in Army Order 296. (The idea being that 100,000 recruits could be found for Lord Kitchener's New Army battalions, like the 7th.) He enlisted at the beginning of September 1914. As we can see from the medal roll screenshot below, many from his intake were funnelled into 7th (Service) Battalion, South Wales Borderers, and were to briefly serve in France a year later, prior to Bulgaria entering the war, with the result that the 7th was redeployed to Salonika.

Image courtesy Ancestry

 

Regarding that first admission report, the primary source is No.31 Casualty Clearing Station: British other ranks, covering dates: 1917 May 17-1917 May 23 (archive reference MH 106/578.)

For that second admission report, the primary source is No.31 Casualty Clearing Station: British other ranks, covering dates: 23 July 1917 - 27 July 1917 (archive reference MH 106/616.)