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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Royal Engineers arm insignia


DaveTomo

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You mean a bit like the very dark shade that yellow would appear as on orthochromatic film stock?

I will say.... possibly.....

Steve.

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You mean a bit like the very dark shade that yellow would appear as on orthochromatic film stock?

I will say.... possibly.....

Steve.

Yes that's what I was seeing. Perhaps it is the 66th (E Lancs) Div then.

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Having blown it up massively and run it through Photoshop a bit, I think - to my eye at least - that it's almost certainly tartan. There is a dark stripe running from the centre of the right hand face to the bottom left hand corner; and a thin white/ light stripe running from just left of the apex to about three-quarters of the way down the right hand face.

It doesn't appear to be 'tri-sected' horizontally like the 66th Div badge.

Also, one benefit of enlarging it so greatly was noticing for the first time that he has cloth slip-on titles sewn to the upper arms.

RESiggytartan_zps2eee6171.jpg

Cheers,

GT.

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Here's an original example of the 66th Division sign on a service dress jacket in my possession. I'm not seeing any hint of this pattern on the photo. I do find the 66th Division identification a bit forced, especially now we've seen the enlargement, and I think the armband must in fact be 15th Division.

post-6903-0-55418600-1407953862_thumb.jp

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Having blown it up massively and run it through Photoshop a bit, I think - to my eye at least - that it's almost certainly tartan. There is a dark stripe running from the centre of the right hand face to the bottom left hand corner; and a thin white/ light stripe running from just left of the apex to about three-quarters of the way down the right hand face.

It doesn't appear to be 'tri-sected' horizontally like the 66th Div badge.

Also, one benefit of enlarging it so greatly was noticing for the first time that he has cloth slip-on titles sewn to the upper arms.

Cheers,

GT.

It certainly look more like plaid now that it has been blown up to that degree GT.

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Here's an original example of the 66th Division sign on a service dress jacket in my possession. I'm not seeing any hint of this pattern on the photo. I do find the 66th Division identification a bit forced, especially now we've seen the enlargement, and I think the armband must in fact be 15th Division.

attachicon.gif2008_0228various0118.JPG

I am not 100% sure, but on the balance of probability the 15th Div now seems more likely to me because the arm band is known to have existed, as has been posted, and there is no real evidence of the 66th (or 29th) Div hypotheses beyond the triangular shape of the badge and knowledge that Div signs were often warn in signals armbands.

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  • 5 years later...

having researched the owner of a tunic I have it appears that my guy trained as a field line telegraphist and i think the black triangle is for this. My tunic also has the 66th divisional flash on the back of the tunic. 

 

 

 

IMG_0004.jpg.ef7edb2b9032d5bafbb91bc5764f717c.jpg

 

 

IMG_0005.jpg

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Well done Paul, thank you for posting.  I think that you have cracked this 6-years old conundrum.  I have not heard of the field line telegraphist qualification badge (black triangle), it does seem to make sense.  Being an Armourer, or RA (metal) ‘Smith’ as well seems a bit incongruous given that those trades were paid a high rate of daily pay and much needed, so it begs the question how could he fulfil both roles.  What was the unit of the man concerned, RA, MGC, AOC, RE?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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What a superb tunic and a real shame about the moth damage. Nice to see the slip-ons sewn to the top of the arm as they so often are in photos but seldom on surviving tunics. The divisional sign looks like painted oilcloth? The late Michael Baldwin owned a 66th Div tunic with a sign of similar construction.

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  • 1 year later...
On 13/08/2014 at 19:26, wainfleet said:

Here's an original example of the 66th Division sign on a service dress jacket in my possession. I'm not seeing any hint of this pattern on the photo. I do find the 66th Division identification a bit forced, especially now we've seen the enlargement, and I think the armband must in fact be 15th Division.

post-6903-0-55418600-1407953862_thumb.jp

What shoulder title is on the tunic?

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According to Edwards & Langley the hammer and pincers was used by smiths, artificers, armourers, fitters, vehicle mechanics, toolmakers and about 20 allied trades - so he could have been doing all sorts of essential jobs. In fact he was a member of 199 Infantry Brigade Signal Section; the armband for signals and the black triangle was the brigade.

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23 minutes ago, poona guard said:

According to Edwards & Langley the hammer and pincers was used by smiths, artificers, armourers, fitters, vehicle mechanics, toolmakers and about 20 allied trades - so he could have been doing all sorts of essential jobs. In fact he was a member of 199 Infantry Brigade Signal Section; the armband for signals and the black triangle was the brigade.

Yes I agree absolutely that there were a number of trades that wore the crossed hammer and pincers badge.  It was one of the older trade badges.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 hours ago, poona guard said:

What shoulder title is on the tunic?

It's the Kings Liverpool Regiment, the 18th Battalion which started life as the 2nd Liverpool Pals but by the time they were wearing this scheme (Sep[tember 1918) had become the Duke of Lancaster's dismounted yeomanry battalion. The same sign is shown, albeit said to be larger and worn on the arm, in the very good Bilton book "The Badges Of Kitchener's Army" which also states that the divisional sign was worn on the back in 1917. He doesn't say which divison and I have wondered if this should mean the battalion sign.

Here are some photos of the tunic, one of my favourite WW1 pieces.

 

20190827_102534.jpg

20190827_102601.jpg

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Glad you think my first book was good: The Regulars should be out soon. The tunic is very interesting because as the first battalion in the senior brigade, following the divisional system it should have been a green vertical diamond on the sleeve - much to think about. You mention I wrote the divisional sign was on the back - that refered to the 30th division sign which I now see wasn't clear. What other badged tunics do you own or have photos of?

Thanks for the help.

Best,

Dave

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