Squadron of BE crew.

[r gannon]

I am trying to track the squadron of a BE2c crew who were attacked by 6 EA (two red) over Gavrelle on the evening of 29 Apr 17. Their names were Lt AE Illingsworth & 2Lt Tymms and were flying BE2c 6277.

Any help appreciated.

Cheers Russ

[mickdavis]

Looks like 5 Sqn

6277 BE2e. At Lincoln 7.9.1916 allotted to BEF . 1 AD St Omer dd ex England 1.10.1916. 2 AD Candas dd ex 1 AD 1.11.1916. 5 Sqn Marieux dd ex 2 AD 12.11.1916. 1 AD by 11.5.1917. 13 Sqn Savy dd ex 2 AD 26.5.1917. 1 AD ex 13 Sqn 16.7.1917 and flown to England 17.7.1917. 44 TS Harlaxton and Waddington by 8.1917 until @ 10.5.1918.

[josquin]

Russ,

Some more about Illingworth and Tymms: Arthur Ernest Illingworth, born 15 October 1887, 2/Lt. Northumberland Fusiliers & 2/Lt. (T/Capt.) RAF

Frederick Tymms, Lt. Lancashire Regiment & Capt. RAF.

Both men were from Lancashire--Illingworth was from Liverpool; Tymms was from Oldham.

Trelawney

[r gannon]

Thanks for that info guys.

My suspicion is that they were the crew of the BE attacked by MvR. MvR of course is popularly credited with 12 Sqn's 7092, with the Great Man claiming that it exploded after a short burst. But I know from the 8 Naval side of things that at least one of the 12 Sqn BE's was under fire from Flak when assailed by an Albatros. And most who study MvR's, CR's would know that he usually had to expend a quite a lot of ammunition to bring down his kills. My growing feeling, when really looking at his claiming overall, is that he was a man increasingly trapped by his own reputation and not a little driven by sibling rivalry. In this instance, we know from his own book that he saw his [more 'combat capable'] brother down a BE (12 Sqn's 2738), whilst I am inclined to believe he himself may have only had an indecisive engagement with the said 5 Sqn machine (right time & location), firing but a few rounds. But on return to Roucourt, when a ring around has revealed a BE having been seen to loose its wings and crash and burn in the German trenches (7092 after having taken a direct hit by Flak?) he may have used his not inconsiderable reputation, to claim credit for the wreckage, and quashing any Flak claims.

And I'm certain, looking at other combats, MvR simply had to be seen to score, when flying patrols with his brother. Indeed when put under the microscope, few of MvR's claims are as squeaky clean as many would like to think.

Cheers Russ

[Errol Martyn]

Frederick Tymms, was later Sir Frederick Tymms. You can read something of his notable post-war career in civil aviation here at http://saalg.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/sir-frederick-tymms-flying-civil-servant.html

Errol

[pierssc]

... and Illingworth is said to have first used the term "dogfight" in print for what seems previously to have been called a "scrap".

Definitely 5 Squadron. My grandfather flew with Tymms as his observer several times that April. There are several mentions of Illingworth. My mother remembers "Captain Illingworth" in the 30s.

Grandfather seems to have flown BE2e 6277 a couple of times - presumably while his usual aircraft 7207 was being worked on.