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Remembered Today:

Brass shells from Belgium


tjcasey14

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Can anyone identify these shell casings I got in Belgium? The one with the date of 1916 was 4" across at the base and about 12 inches tall. The one with the date of 1917 is a little smaller...about 3.5" across the base and 11" tall.

Thank you!

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post-113249-0-09515000-1407120257_thumb.

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They are not shell cases but cartridge cases. The 1916 one was attached to a 13 pounder shell. The 13 pounder was originally the artillery piece used by the British Royal Horse Artillery but was found to offer not enough power for the weight of the gun and the 18 pounder, already in use supplanted it on the Western Front but it remained in use and even replaced 18 pounders in the Palestine theatre as it was lighter and better able to keep up with the cavalry. On the Western Front by 1916 13 pounder rounds were primarily used for anti aircraft work

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Centurion,

Serious question : what is the difference between shell cases and cartridge cases ?

The size (caliber) ?

I (naïvely) thought that shells were artillery, cartridges for rifles.

Aurel

P.S. I am also asking because here with me I have a "case" (trench art), measuring 23 cm tall (approx. 9 inches) and diameter (base) 9 cm (approx. 3 1/2 inches). I just thought it was a "shell case". Wrong ?

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Cartridge cases hold the propellant and stay with the gun (artillery piece or small arms) and are sometimes refilled and reused more than once, the shell case contains explosives and or shrapnel balls or possibly chemicals (and is fitted with a fuze)and travels to (hopefully) the target and are single use Shell cases are only used with large (over 38 mm) weapons for reasons of international law. However some artillery could also fire solid shot for armour piercing purposes and explosive small arm rounds were used against airships and balloons. Its brass cartridge cases that make up a lot of trench art but they are frequently mis called shell cases

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Thanks, Centurion.

For this is also an answer to something that has puzzled my mind for several years : the translation of what we call (in our local dialect) : "potten". That is : the heavy cilindrical containers but without the shrapnell balls. They are harmless (after firing). I just couldn't find the English word. Now I know : "shell cases".

(Up to now I always used the word "shell cases" for the cases that held (hold) the propellant, and were thrown out of the guns (some of which were made into trench art, and vases etc.)

Aurel

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No - mystified. Can't think of any British artillery piece that was around in 1917 that was just a little smaller than a 13 pounder - I'm assuming that its British from Lot (batch). Had hoped that someone who knew what AFM meant would have showed up by now - the "usual suspects" aren't shy at showing their mastery of the arcane subject of head stamps.

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Cartridge cases hold the propellant and stay with the gun (artillery piece or small arms) and are sometimes refilled and reused more than once, the shell case contains explosives and or shrapnel balls or possibly chemicals (and is fitted with a fuze)and travels to (hopefully) the target and are single use Shell cases are only used with large (over 38 mm) weapons for reasons of international law. However some artillery could also fire solid shot for armour piercing purposes and explosive small arm rounds were used against airships and balloons. Its brass cartridge cases that make up a lot of trench art but they are frequently mis called shell cases

Centurion, I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure it's quite as cut-and-dried as that. This may be a national definition, but in the US the normal term for the brass part of an artillery shell (that you call the cartridge case) is called the Shell Casing. In the US, the term "cartridge" is not usually used for artillery rounds, but is normally restricted to small arms ammunition. We would generally make a distinction between the "shell casing" and the "Shell Case", if we wanted to distinguish between the two parts of the ammunition.

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Doc2,

What is according to you the difference between "shell case" and "shell casing" ?

(Maybe somewhere it is being suggested in the topic, but I want to be sure. Shell case = the thing that contains the shrapnell balls etc ?)

By the way, for the brass part of the artillery shell, here in our local Flemish dialect we all use the (French) word "douille".

Aurel

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Centurion, I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure it's quite as cut-and-dried as that. This may be a national definition, but in the US the normal term for the brass part of an artillery shell (that you call the cartridge case) is called the Shell Casing. In the US, the term "cartridge" is not usually used for artillery rounds, but is normally restricted to small arms ammunition. We would generally make a distinction between the "shell casing" and the "Shell Case", if we wanted to distinguish between the two parts of the ammunition.

It isn't part of the shell its part of the round which is usually a cartridge containing the propellant attached to a shot (solid) or a shell (a casing containing explosives, chemicals etc with a fuse). Thus to call an anti tank round with a sabot shot a shell would be a nonsense.although in everyday inexact parlance I'm sure it is so incorrectly named. I have heard Americans refer to hand gun ammunition as shells - doesn't make it correct.

Shells fired from guns as opposed to howitzers and mortars appear to have been introduced by the French navy around 1790 in an attempt to counter British naval superiority. It didn't work. Post the Napoleonic war the French continued to try and develop shell firing guns and eventually succeeded (after the loss of several ships during the experimental period) and shell gun equipped ships proved devastatingly superior this being one impetuous towards the development of the armoured warship. Brass cartridge cases were not introduced until the development of breach loading guns, especially quick firers. Some larger guns used a brass cased cartridge that was loaded separately from the shell and was not attached to it. I have just such a French cartridge case from 1917. This allowed the gunners the opportunity to vary the propellent charge

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Personally I could care less about the bickering if it's called cartridge or case. What I want to know is what country's armed forces it belong to.

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Personally I could care less about the bickering if it's called cartridge or case. What I want to know is what country's armed forces it belong to.

Way to kill your own thread, TJ...!

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Redbarchetta,

Well said.

TJ,

Sorry if I co-hijacked your thread ...

Maybe I (or someone else) could think : "Personally I could care less if the thing is Peruvian, Chinese or Mongolian. What I want to know is if it is a cartridge, shell case or shell casing."

Other people may also think : "Well, maybe TJ should be forgiven. He's still young. Only a handful of postings. He hasn't learned yet how this Forum works."

But if I ever find out if the thing you have is Peruvian or Belgian, I'll let you know.

Or maybe not. :glare:

A.

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Doc2,

What is according to you the difference between "shell case" and "shell casing" ?

(Maybe somewhere it is being suggested in the topic, but I want to be sure. Shell case = the thing that contains the shrapnell balls etc ?)

By the way, for the brass part of the artillery shell, here in our local Flemish dialect we all use the (French) word "douille".

Aurel

The way I have normally heard it used by US artillery experts is that the container which holds the fuze/explosive/shrapnel/other stuff which is shot out toward the enemy (sort of like the bullet in small arms ammunition) is the "shell casing", while the big brass piece into which the powder, primer, and "shell casing" fit (what Centurion refers to as a Shell Cartridge, and what looks like a big small arms cartridge) is the "Shell Case". It's definitely confusing, and I suspect it gets more so when we thrown multiple nations' terms into it. I wonder if we have any Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi members here who can chime in with what their nations tend to call these various items. Personally, I find these national terminology variations at least as interesting as whether the item in question is Brazilian, Lunar, or Martian.

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TJ

The 13 pdr. appears to be British.

Tony P

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Thanks Tony!

I talked to the head curator for the WW1 museum in Kansas City and he thinks the one dated1917 is either French or Belgian.

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Has he produced evidence, because those are British markings. I have never seen a Belgian or French case with the British LOT number/letter of the cordite.

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My thoughts are, a British 2.95" QF cartridge fitted with percussion primer for blank cartridges.

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If AFM stands for Ateliers de Fabrication Militaires, then it is Belgian.

(I have a Belgian shell case with FN = Fabrique Nationale Herstal, and as far as I know AFM was on other Belgian shell cases.)

As to Lot ... No idea.... Don't know ... Lot is an English word indeed, but it sure is French as well.

So : Belgian ? Anything that is a counterargument ?

Aurel

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LOT is commonly seen on British cases.

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The other point is that the 3 slot primer for the 3 pronged primer key was used for blanks. There is a thread somewhere on the forum on the subject.

But obviously I bow to other's superior knowledge on this subject and I will say no more.

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I know absolutely nothing about the ammunition but can I make an observation about the writing?

The number ones in 1917 have very long tops which is more European than British. In the 1916 marking they have short tops.

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Auchonvillerssomme,

I certainly believe you when you say that LOT is commonly seen on British cases.

I only wanted to say that maybe (?) it can be seen on Belgian cases too. As the word is also French. (And in Belgium French is / was a not uncommon language, certainly in WW1. ;-) )

Add to this that AFM is French, not English, and can be found on Belgian cases ...

So maybe (?) that case is Belgian ?

Aurel

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