Interpreting soldiers death certificate

[the-5th-kings]

I am looking for some help with a death certificate.

It says the soldier "Died P.R. Missing" which I think is " Died previously reported missing". He was reported killed to his family within a month of the date he was reported missing. Does this mean his body was found or it was just accepted by the army that he had died.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Colin

[John_Hartley]

Difficult to be sure. However, in my experience, it usually takes several months (up to a year) for a "missing" to become "presumed died". As such, I tend towards the body being found. I'm presuming your man doesn't have a known grave which might then suggest the body was recovered and buried but the grave location wa slater lost. All speculation though, I'm afraid.

[the-5th-kings]

He is on the Memorial wall at Tyne-cot with no know grave. He was reported missisg on 20/09/17 and he was in a family notice in the Liverpool Courier in October 1917 as "now reported killed" which is only a matter of weeks. When you say grave location was later lost, would this mean either they just could not find it at a later date or it could have been lost to shell fire. I understand it is only speculation but after thinking he had been lost for nearly 100 years, it is nice to think he might of had a burial even if we cant find it.

Thank you

Colin

[johnboy]

His body was probably found and he could have been buried with a marked grave. I don't think that all burials were recorded with map references.

The marker could have been lost if the ground was fought over.

[the-5th-kings]

He died in the battle of Menin road so the ground was fought over for another year. If he was reported missing first, I take it if his body was found it would have been a couple of weeks later so do you think he might of been buried were he was or moved to a site nearby

Colin

[johnboy]

If the War Diary for his battalion is available to download from The National Archives it may give some clues. It is very doubtful it will name him.

[the-5th-kings]

I have the war diary but it does not help me this time but thank you for the suggestion. If you know of any other records or ideas please let me know.

Thank you

Colin

[the-5th-kings]

His Battalion were moved to a different area within days of him going missing so it is unlikely it was them that found him

[johnboy]

Did the diary give how many men were listed missing around that time?

[John_Hartley]

would this mean either they just could not find it at a later date or it could have been lost to shell fire.

Yes.

[the-5th-kings]

There were 7 men missing that day and I think that was all for september

[Loader]

Seems to me that "Missing" is NO physical trace of the man or knowledge of his whereabouts. To be corrected to Killed says his body has been found or a witness saw him killed but in any case there is now evidence to confirm he is dead. Likely a body found & buried & grave lost through shell fire especially in that area. As hard as that is for the family I think it was better than forever not knowing anything.

I think a year or more is required before issuing a dead finding on a missing case.

[kathleen donaldson]

Article published in the Lverpool Courier 11th February 1916 regarding Soldier's death Certificates and those posted as Missing in action

SOLDIER’S DEATH CERTIFICATES

The following announcement is issued by the War Office:-

Certificates of the death of soldiers killed in action or dying as a result of active service are issued to those concerned by the War Office on application free of charge. In cases in which more than one certificate is required for insurance purposes, etc, duplicate copies are supplied.

It should be noted that the notification sent to the next-of-kin by the officers in charge of the records immediately upon the receipt of the casualty list is not intended as a certificate of death, but is sent out in order to give the relatives the earliest possible information of the casualty. In each case of death an individual documentary report is subsequently rendered from the base in confirmation, and it is only on receipt of this evidence that a formal certificate of death is issued.

In the case of missing men, a special form of certificate is furnished when the Army Council, after careful consideration of the circumstances of each case, have decided that owing to the lapse of time and absence of news it is necessary to accept the soldiers as dead for official purposes.

Applications for certificates of death in cases where the soldier has been reported killed or dead, or where his death has been officially accepted, should be addressed to the secretary, War Office, Park Buildings, St. James Park, London S.W

[johnboy]

There were 7 men missing that day and I think that was all for September

You could look to see if they are commemorated at Tyne Cot. Or buried elsewhere.

[the-5th-kings]

Do you know how I could find out who the other 6 missing men were. Its a good idea, Thank you.

[johnboy]

Which Regiment and battalion was he in?

[spof]

To have gone from Missing to Killed a few weeks, it is almost certain that his body was found. If he had been in German trenches when he was killed, htey would have sent notification to Berlin - Geneva - London via the Red Cross.In cases I have researched on the AIF, that took longer than weeks usually 2 months at least.

In addition to his body being found, buried and then the grave being lost, he could have had his identification disc removed when he was found and buried. He might have then been found and reburied in a CWGC cemetery post war as an Unknown soldier.

[the-5th-kings]

He was in the 1/5th King's (Liverpool) Regiment.

I would like to thank everyone for the comments and idea's they have given, they have all been very helpful

Colin

[johnboy]

1/5 th men shown as died 20/9/17 shows aprox 55 listed on Tyne Cot Memorial.

1 buried Tyne Cot Cemetry

2 buried Dochy Farm Cemetry

The 55 listed on the memorial were probably buried but the graves were lost. It seems they may have been buried in the same place as it seems to be a lot of men not to have been found.

[the-5th-kings]

I think the war diary said 41 K, 7 DoW, 7 missing. 55 in all. Would any one have any information or records of burials around that area at that time?

Thank you

Colin

[johnboy]

Without service records it will be impossible to filter out the seven missing men.

You could look for the location of Dochy Farm Cemetry If it is in close proximity it may be shown on a trench map..

You could maybe look for the regiment that relieved them and see if they mention any burials. Some diary writers gave map co- ordinates of graves but most did not.

[the-5th-kings]

Johnboy

Thank you very much for all your help, I might not find anything but it gives me something to work on.

Thank you to everybody also for all your comments and help, it is very much appreciated.

Colin

[John_Hartley]

The difficulty with war diary entries about "missings" is that it's only accurate as at the point of writing the entry. Men may reappear minutes or hours later.

[the-5th-kings]

Thank you John it's a good point. It is all speculation and I can only learn through the experience and help of the people who are kind enough to reply.

I will have to remember not to jump to conclusions while I am still learning about these things.

Thank you for the advice.

Colin

[johnboy]

Can you give his name and number?