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Remembered Today:

Turkish Heavy Artillery at Anzac


stevenbecker

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Steve

The attached are extracts from the entry in the CRA (GHQ) for 13th June, which may be of interest. Is 'J' Branch is an intelligence section? No Beachy Bill yet only a Black Maria, hopefully you can let me know what that is.

Regards

Alan

post-74297-0-18892600-1408276845_thumb.j

post-74297-0-80926600-1408276862_thumb.j

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Mate,

Sorry my only knowage of anything called a "Black Maria" was a type of shell fired by the Germans or Turks at us?

Probily a large calibur type?

John,

Thanks for the photo?

Its got me stumped.

It appears to be a fixed heavy gun possibly a coastal gun. And yes that was my idea of what Becchy Bill was like but I was thinking it could be a moblie gun of a heavy type?

OF cause where was this photo taken?

IF around the Anzac position where?

Sorry just more questions then anewers

Cheers

S.B

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Steve,

Previously I would have agreed that John's photo was probably what Beachy Bill would have been, but the contemporary Turkish maps do not seem to support that. Although the gun symbols in the Turkish General Staff Brief History do not conform to the 1915 Ottoman symbols, all would still suggest that the gun/s at Kaba Tepe were the 75mm Mountain Gun QF. That does not take into account the heavier guns that were positioned alongside and further behind Kaba Tepe from the Esat Pasha map of 4th August. As to how long those guns had been in place I just can not establish, as yet, some, or all, may have been emplaced from before the 25th April, though some how I doubt it.

John's photo is indeed interesting, and I would tend to think it would have been taken well after the war had ended, as to what type of gun it is, I haven't a clue, can not find anything that resembles it.

Alan,

From what I understand 'J' Branch was indeed an intelligence section, I might be wrong but I think it was a joint Army/Navy branch originally based in Cairo, but for the Gallipoli campaign had a section working out of Lemnos, or Maidos. I'm sure there will be someone here who has far more knowledge of "J" Branch than I.

Steve,

From the Esat Pasha map I only gave the guns that appeared to range on Anzac, but that was only about one third of the map, the rest may assist with your missing heavy guns.

What I do find interesting, it would appear that the Turkish III Corps Headquarters did expect a British August advance to be launched on Palamutluk Sirti from between Kaba Tepe to out past Cam Koyu; nearly all the guns shown on this section of the map appear to be ranged upon that section of the coast, and there are more heavy guns positioned here than those in next section that are ranged on Anzac, but strangely, no mountain guns.

202 x7. 1 x 75mm field gun 10/2.

202 x2. 1 Nordenfelt gun.

202 y2. 1 x 7rmm field gun. 10/2 (this is not an error, the Ottoman numerals are quite clear for both guns.)

202 t6. 1 x 150mm field gun.

202 t3. 1 x 120mm field gun.

203 g7. 1 x 75mm field gun 4/2.

203 g3. 1 x 75mm field gun 2/2.

193 g8. 1 x 75mm field gun 4/2 (ditto)

193 g5. 1 x 75mm field gun 5/2.

193 b5. 1 x 105mm howitzer 2/39.

193 b2. 1 x 105mm howitzer 1/39.

At square 240 out from Maidos at f5 there is a 120mm howitzer which would appear to be ranged out towards Kaba Tepe.

There are no guns shown in the vicinity of Bivuk Anafarta, but there is one 120mm howitzer 4/16 at 265 f7. village of Tursht en Kevi.

Another 120mm field gun 7/4 at 250 v7.

250 j6. 1 x 75mm field gun.

250 t8. 1 x 75mm field gun.

266 q3. q6. 2 x 75mm field guns.

In the next defensive section out from the Suvla Bay there are two 105mm howitzers and a number of 75mm field guns, but these guns all facing towards the Coast of Saros.

Jeff

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  • 3 months later...

Hi,


I have a couple of questions around the 8th Artillery Regiment, specifically from Erickson’s book “Gallipoli, the Ottoman Campaign.”



In his map on 968 he shows what appear to be three batteries of the “Kereviz Group” armed with 12cm howitzers (the battery is dispersed), and three (understrength) batteries of the 15cm howitzer batteries of the Tenger Group. By the way, Mst Mv is “Fortified Area,” but I don’t know what “Gr” is.



Does anyone know if theses are part of the 8th (Mobile Howitzer) Artillery Regiment?


Also, the other battery of 10 is intriguing. If the symbol and calibre is correct, then these are 141cm Howitzer machine guns, which does not make much sense! I assume that they are 141mm Howitzers, but I don’t know anything more about them.



These maps are copied from the Turkish official histories, I also have them in my copy of “A Brief History of the Çanakkale Campaign in the first world war,” published by the Turkish General Staff.



I am also trying to work out then other divisional artillery reached the front at Anzac and Helles. The field and mountain batteries of the 9th and 19th all reached the battefields on the 25th, or perhaps the 26th. However, the only record I have for the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 11th divisions is that the artillery of the 5th and 7th were ordered to march from Bulair on the 26th, which means that they probably showed up at the earliest on the 29th. That reference is from von Sanders “Five years in Turkey,” which does not strike me as very reliable. Ericsson and the Turkish official history only discuss the movement of infantry regiments.



I am particularly interested because I am adding a 1st battle of Krithia scenario to my soon-to-b-published Gallipoli game, see


http://www.gmtgames.com/p-505-gallipoli-1915-churchills-greatest-gamble.aspx


and


http://ifonlythegame.com/



I’ll post a scan of the map as soon as I can work out how to do it :-(




cheers


Geoff


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Scan of the map on p68 of Erickson, showing various coastal defence artillery units of CFAC.

cheers

Geoff

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Concerning Black Marias.

In "WIth the twenty-ninth division in Gallipoli" by Rev.O. Creighton, the Revered often refers to Black Marias being fired by "Asiatic Annie." They are clearly large calibre shells, and burst with black smoke. From that I infer that they are the old 150mm "BL" howitzers, firing shells filled with black powder, rather than the modern 150mm howitzers firing Lyddite shells. The Olive Grove battery was probably the older BL 150mm, possible even captured from the Bulgarians in 1912/13.

Interestingly he comments that when the railway was opened up through Bulgaria that the Ottoman artillery became much more dangerous - there were fewer duds and they exploded more vigorously. He clearly thought the shells manufactured in Constantinople were not up to German standards.

cheers

Geoff

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the other battery of 10 is intriguing. If the symbol and calibre is correct, then these are 141cm Howitzer machine guns, which does not make much sense! I assume that they are 141mm Howitzers, but I don’t know anything more about them.

Geoff

Looking at Table 1 in the TGS's 'Brief History' which lists the CFA Artillery at 18MAR1915

then the only type of gun of which there are 10 in number, are the 210/6.4 Mortars and these are indeed listed as being at Tengerdere

[The '141' shown on the map must be an error]

Erickson, in his book which you mention, also shows these guns as being with the 8th Artillery Regiment; eg - see his Table A2 & A3 on pages 204 & 205

regards

Michael

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Thanks, I missed that table. Another useful part is that it shows which artillery regiment (3rd, 4th, 5th) manned which fixed fort.

Interestingly the first table does not give ammunition supply figures for the 12cm pieces in the Kereviz group, and they did not fire much in the March naval battle. These were old pieces, so it hints that they were no longer producing this ammunition and it was in short supply. The best supplied pieces were the modern 150mm Howitzers.

I can see another typo - 150/108 is 150mm bore, 16.2 m long :-)

cheers

Geoff

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  • 1 month later...

It was later in the battle (November), but my father, at ANZAC Cove, saw the battery of two 24.5 cm motorized A-H mortars in action against the bridgehead. He thought they were the much better known 30.5 cm Moto-Moerser. (The Austrians had first planned to send the larger guns, but an advance party of two A-H artillery officers studied the route and advised them to send the smaller,

lighter guns, due to the roads and bridges.) He thought they were very effective, and after they started firing he saw a lot of activity on the ANZAC cemeteries. A battery of German 15 cm howitzers and good German ammunition had also arrived, and were sent to Helles Point. My father's father had worked with the 30.5 cm guns in Belgium, and he was familiar with them. My father was there as a volunteer Pionier in the Pionier=Kompagnie at Gallipoli.

The Germans and Austrians were planning to send 20 heavy batteries to Gallipoli in 1916, and had other surprises planned, so it was just as well that the Allies left before then. The Turkish-made shells rarely exploded in 1915; Liman von Sanders estimated a 95% dud rate, so the newly arriving good ammunition from Germany and Austria was also a factor, once the route thru Serbija was

finally open

Bob Lembke.

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Mate,

So far my records give these commanders of the 8th Heavy or Fortress Artillery Regt ;

8th Heavy Artillery Regt (Fortress) - LtCol Mehmet Zekerriya - LtCol Werle (German)

1Bn/8th Arty Regt - Maj Rifat

2Bn/8th Arty Regt - Capt Mehmet Halit

3Bn (Heavy Arty - Capt Ali Tevfik

4Bn (Siege Arty) - Capt. Hasbi Aug 1915 at Helles

How this Regt was broken up and guns to what Bn is unknown but can be guessed at by the wieght and calibur of the guns in the 8th Regt in Ed Ericksons list.

Cheers

S.B

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  • 2 weeks later...

RE: 19th Division artillery regiment. The division had the 39th Field Artillery Regiment at Gallipoli. The reorganization of the Ottoman Army after the Balkan Wars had the 19th and 20th Divisions as part of the Independent 7th Army Corps stationed in Arabia. It was planned that neither of these divisions would have a divisional artillery regiment, any required artillery support being provided by a corps artillery regiment. The 19th Field Artillery Regiment was stood up in San’a before the war (see volume VI of the officials) as the 7th Corps artillery. The 39th Division was stood up in Arabia in early 1914 and would form the corps with the 20th Division. The 20th Division then became the 40th Division and new 19th and 20th Divisions were raised in November. As the first available artillery regimental number was the 39th, it was assigned to the 19th Division. The 20th number was unassigned and so became the artillery regiment of the 20th Division.

RE: 8th Heavy Artillery (and other Turkish fortress artillery) organization. Use Table 1 from TGS Brief for all fortress artillery organizations. V nci cilt Çanakkale cephesi harekât 1nci kitap Haziran 1914 – 25 Nisan 1915 (Volume V Part I), pages 181-183 lists all the fortress artillery units on 17 March. These pages are captured as a table in çizeige 10 and the TGS Brief Table 1 is a direct copy. For example, the 8th Heavy Artillery Regiment has two battalions, the 1st with three 15cm/10.8 caliber howitzers batteries and one 12cm/11.6 caliber howitzer battery; the 2nd with three 15cm/10.8 batteries.

RE: Table A-2. His source was Part 1 of Volume V Çizeige 14 (Table 14). The original table lists the artillery units by tactical groupings, not by assigned unit. Under Tenger Grubu is listed the 8th Heavy Artillery Regiment, 1st Battalion (three batteries) of 15cm (12 guns) with 3375 rounds available; and the 4th Heavy Artillery Regiment, 2nd Battalion, 15th Battery of 21cm mortars (10 guns)(the table lists it as the 14th Battery but see below) with 602 rounds available (Erickson only provides two of the four types listed in the table). Note that the 12cm/11.6 caliber howitzer battery of the 8th is not part of the Tenger Grubu. Also the total of 7,627 is for both battalions of the 8th Heavy Artillery.

RE: 4th Heavy Artillery Regiment, 2nd Battalion, 15th (or is it the 14th) Battery of 21cm mortars (10 guns). The organization of the non-corps and below artillery is given in V part 1. Here the battery of ten 21cm mortars is listed as the 15th Battery. But çizeige 14 lists this battery as the 14th. I also believe the 141 unit on the Erickson map (which is a copy from the officials) is a typo (possibly meaning the 14th Battery, but this is inconsistent with other map marking). I have found similar errors in the Turkish officials and have found the text is generally correct over the maps. The list on pages 181-183 states it is the 15th Battery so that is what should be used.

RE: Gr. Grubu (group)

Jeff

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Jeff,

Missed you on the other site?

My details on the Turkish Heavy or fortress Artillery at Gallipoli is limited;

The 4th Heavy or Fortress Artillery Regt is limited with;

4th Heavy Artillery Regt (Fortress) - Maj Vastilo Bey (German?)

5Co or Bty/2Bn - Capt Hilmi (Top) Efendi & Lt Fahri Efendi

2Bn - manned forts near Maidos and Kalid Bahr

So a 15th or 14th Bty in the 2nd Bn is interesting

Also

The 5th Heavy Artillery Regt (Fortress) - Capt Serkis Torosyan (Armenian commander of Ertugrul Fort)

1Bn - at Sedd el Bahr

2Bn - at Kum Kale

3Bn - outer forts along mouth Dardanelles

All my records show three (Bn's) then later a fourth Bn in the 8th Heavy or Fortress Artillery Regt at Gallipoli.

Thats makes only 30 guns from the 32 guns on the list given by Ed E;

1Bn - 3xBtys (15cm/10.8 (12 guns) + 1Bty (12cm/11.6 (6 guns)

2Bn - 3xBtys (15cm/10.8 (12 guns)

your still missing a number of guns (2x 15cm/10,8)?

I take it you mean the 210/6,4 Mortars (10 guns) was the attached 2Bn/4th Heavy or Fortress Artillery Regt?

Ed E lists also shows + in March 1915,

12 guns of the type (120/30) purhaps the 3Bn of three Btys, or was the 3Bn the 10 Mortars (210/6.4)?

But how many units left the Adrianople Fortress when the 8th HAR was sent to Gallipoli early 1915 is unknown?

Cheers

S.B

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  • 2 months later...

It was later in the battle (November), but my father, at ANZAC Cove, saw the battery of two 24.5 cm motorized A-H mortars in action against the bridgehead. He thought they were the much better known 30.5 cm Moto-Moerser. (The Austrians had first planned to send the larger guns, but an advance party of two A-H artillery officers studied the route and advised them to send the smaller,

lighter guns, due to the roads and bridges.) He thought they were very effective, and after they started firing he saw a lot of activity on the ANZAC cemeteries. A battery of German 15 cm howitzers and good German ammunition had also arrived, and were sent to Helles Point. My father's father had worked with the 30.5 cm guns in Belgium, and he was familiar with them. My father was there as a volunteer Pionier in the Pionier=Kompagnie at Gallipoli.

The Germans and Austrians were planning to send 20 heavy batteries to Gallipoli in 1916, and had other surprises planned, so it was just as well that the Allies left before then. The Turkish-made shells rarely exploded in 1915; Liman von Sanders estimated a 95% dud rate, so the newly arriving good ammunition from Germany and Austria was also a factor, once the route thru Serbija was

finally open

Bob Lembke.

No question there Bob. The Anzac 'cauldron' would have been closed very quickly once those new professional batteries arrived from Austria/germany. It was a definite endgame.

The picture of the naval guys with beachy bill seems a stretch. Im not aware of naval personnel being in the area after the war, although garrison troops more likely. The terrain also doesnt seem right for the area of beachy bill.

The beachy bill that became serious was not the same one that fired earlier in the campaign. As mentioned that early one was dusted up by the bacchante supposedly. But some howitzers seemed to have arrived there later and they were more effective at hitting the beach areas

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  • 4 years later...

I came across a short item about Turkish guns now at a school in India. From the website The Lawrence Royal Military School Sanawar.  http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~derekboddington/school-alumni/contents.html

The Birdwood 'Guns'

These two artillery pieces were presented as Trophies to the School by the Government of India in 1928 in recognition of the School's contribution to the Great War of 1915-1918, and to honour those Sanawarians who fell in action during the conflict. They are early Turkish, 3.5", (13-pounder) breech-loading field guns reported to have been captured in 1916 in the Dardanelle during the Gallipoli Campaign. The guns with their carriages, were despatched from Ferozepore Arsenal on the 20th March 1928, and after de-commissioning were installed in their present sites on the quadrangle in time for the opening ceremony of Birdwood School and unveiling of the Cenotaph in September 1929. They remain standing there to this day, still overlooking the Cenotaph and Memorials - silent sentinels to the memory of Sanawar's fallen.

The Birdwood 'Guns'

Dagroo Camp

 

 

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  • 5 months later...

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