Jump to content

Remembered Today:

21169 LcpI Joseph stockton


markankers
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello can anyone help me my g/uncle was in the 4th battalion the grenader guards in the Great War. With the number 21169 did he join in 1914, I'm trying to figure out if he joined the same day as his younger brother frank stockton 10775 9th cheshire. They both died in France in 1917.

Many thanks to all

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Sam

I know both lads service records are destroyed as I searched on ancestry, I will check your link.

Thank you again for replying

Regards mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark

Ancestry don't normally have Guardsmens records unless they served in other Regts, that's why you didn't find his, whilst the rest of the Army combined their's centrally where they were bombed/burnt/water damaged, the Guards Regiments retained theirs and still hold them.

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark

The Regimental Headquaters hold records not available on Ancestry and would be worth a try. They were able to provide copies of the attestation papers and medal receipts for a soldier in the Coldstream Guards I was researching. As Sam says I seem to remember it was £30, but in my case well worth it.

Regards

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ancestry have some Guards records and are worth checking out first. Partly it saves the £30 fee but it also saves the time of the Regimental Archivist who work on a voluntary basis.

Regards

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many thanks to all for your help

Regards

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Medal card is on ansestry, but no service record.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

re the Coldstream

the archivist (when they have one) is a trained solider as well as the volunteers

ancestry do have Coldstream guards records (I have found loads of them) - just none of those killed or died

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are they likely to have records on my ansester? I have sent a hand writen letter, to them today, regarding Joseph Stockton.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark

I don't think they guarantee to find anything but what they do have they copy for you. The Guardsman archivist I dealt with got in touch regarding whether I wanted electronic copies or paper copies, the latter when they arrived were A3. I think it took about two weeks once I sent the enquiry form in, but the implication of Coldstreamers' comments is that it can take longer. The date of enlistment will be on the Attestation.

Let us know how you get on, I'm sure an expert on the forum will be able to help you interpret anything you receive.

Regards

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cant speak for the Grenadiers archives - one would imagine as not being Coldstream it will take longer :whistle:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Alan

I received a letter from the grenader guards, saying I will need to make a cheque out to them, to do a search. Ive done this so will have to see what they come up with

Regards mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hello all

I have had Lcpl Joseph stocktons service record sent to me. Could to with some help understanding some parts, many thanks to all

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was he called for service or did he inlist?

He has an attestation date of November 1914 and he had no previous military service. Conscription wasn't in place till 1916 so he was a volunteer.

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mark

Good to see they found some records. To return to your original question Joseph attested on 17th December 1914. He first entered a theatre of war on 26 July 1915 and his Medal Index Card confirms that he was entitled to the 1914-15 Star. Frank's MIC does not have the Star thus he did not see service abroad before 1916. It is possible he could have enlisted at the same time as his elder brother and remained in the UK with his Battalion; an expert on the Cheshires may be able to help. One clue may be age difference between the brothers and when Frank became 18 and was thus able to enlist.

Regards

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Alan

I've have a bit of a puzzle here. Frank stocktons medal index card, hads no star, so he appears not to have deployed till after 1915. However I went through the archives of the northwich guardien, and found the following, dated October 1917

F STOCKTON

Mr and mrs stockton of Hodge lane Weaverham Northwich received on Wednesday that their son Lcpl F Stockton of the cheshire regiment, died at a base hospital on September 30th from gunshot wounds in the head. He formally worked at mrs Lowndes farm and volunteered the first week of the war. He had been more than two years at the front, and had been wounded three times previously. His elder brother fell in action, a few weeks ago.

Is it possible there is another medal card? franks number was 10775 so it's an early number.

Regards mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mark

If I have the right Stockton family, Father James, Mother Ellen, Frank is three years younger than Joseph and therefore he would have been about 20 years old at the out break of war. It is just possible that if he arrived in France early 1916 and died in September 1917 that in journalistic terms it equates to two years at the front. Apologises in advance to any journalists on the forum. It is interesting that the newspaper gives his rank as Lance Corporal but both CWGC and the MIC give Private. It is also interesting that if he did enlist in the first few weeks of the war as indicated in the article, he did so several month before his brother Joseph. I've found checking other similar numbers, above and below, for the Regiment in the SWB records can help to give an indication of enlistment dates.

I'm not an expert of in Medal Cards but from what I've learned from other contributors on the forum, a second number was only issued if the soldier changed Regiments, though I'm happy to be corrected. I have found one or two 'Alias' cards but I don't think that is relevant in your case. There will be an explanation of Medal Card interpretation on the Long Long Trail.

Regards

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cheers Alan

It's a shame his service record didn't survive, I searched on ansestry for it but no look. Do you know if the cheshire reg HQ, May have a copy like the guards do?

Many thanks mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark

The Northwich Guardian report you mentioned earlier stated "He formally worked at mrs Lowndes farm and volunteered the first week of the war", the fact he worked on a Farm is significant as it would have probably been judicious after his enlistment to leave him there till he was needed, it was a common occurence as let's face it, at the start of the War it wasn't meant to last and men who passed medicals as "A1" later in the War failed them at it's outbreak.

I can't see any other obvious medal card for a Star, but as the Northwich Guardian also stated he "had been wounded three times previously", I'd check earlier editions as they'd normally also print casualty lists, if he served with a different Regiment, he may have been listed as being wounded with them.

Finally, have you checked Soldiers Died Great War? It sometimes lists Regiments a man previously served with.

If I have the right Stockton family, Father James, Mother Ellen, Frank is three years younger than Joseph and therefore he would have been about 20 years old at the out break of war.

If he was 20 then there'd be no reason to enlist under an alias other than previous rejection or discharge due to discipline or fitness, also if he had enlisted under an alias, due to the fact his War and Victory MIC is in his own name, there would be either a note on the Star MIC with the alias deleted and the correct name inserted, a new Star MIC or it'd be included on his MIC for the British and Victory Medals.

It is just possible that if he arrived in France early 1916 and died in September 1917 that in journalistic terms it equates to two years at the front.

The most reasonable conclusion.

It is interesting that the newspaper gives his rank as Lance Corporal but both CWGC and the MIC give Private.

L/Cpl was an appointment and not a substansive Rank, therefore it more often than not didn't appear on an MIC. It's also the easiest rank to lose as it could be removed without a Court Martial.

It is also interesting that if he did enlist in the first few weeks of the war as indicated in the article, he did so several month before his brother Joseph. I've found checking other similar numbers, above and below, for the Regiment in the SWB records can help to give an indication of enlistment dates.

Definately the best course of action if there is no surviving Service Record and you want to try and roughly estimate an enlistment date.

a second number was only issued if the soldier changed Regiments.

Almost correct, you could also be issued a 2nd number if you transferred to another Bn of the same Regiment as most Bn's used the same numbers and also due to the re-numbering of the Territorials in 1917.

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mark

The Cheshire Military Museum offer to research a soldier for a donation, but what they can tell you may be limited.

http://www.cheshiremilitarymuseum.co.uk/

They may also be able to help with the Battalion's War Diary and although Frank is unlikely to be mentioned by name I find War Diaries, in most cases, an interesting read. The War Diary may also be available on-line from the National Archives if it has been digitised for £3.30.

Good luck with your research.

Regards

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will go back and check casualty lists in the papers, many thanks

Regards mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...