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Remembered Today:

Who is This ? ? ?


Stoppage Drill

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I should have posted sooner but for some reason l was trying to tie the last two up with Brian Jones and Mick Taylor, took a while for the penny to drop. Can’t blame my age as one M Jagger was cavorting around the stage the other night I believe.

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9 hours ago, Knotty said:

M Jagger Sgt  386 -Talana

Was this the sculptor Sergeant Jagger who carved the Royal Artillery memorial?

 

As to the bearded one, is he one of the commodores who commanded the 1st and 2nd Naval Brigades in the RND?

 

Ron

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2 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

 

As to the bearded one, is he one of the commodores who commanded the 1st and 2nd Naval Brigades in the RND?

 

Ron

 

He is not. Here's a heavy clue:

 

 

image.jpg

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Thanks for the clue UG which gave me the 51st Highland Division.

 

He is Brigadier-General Sir W. C. Ross, K.B.E., C.B., C.M.G. who was given command of 152 Infantry Brigade in Nov 1914, and the 1st Highland Brigade 1915/16, then on to the 228 Brigade in Salonika from 1916 to the end of hostilities.

 

His beard was grown to cover the result of an incident during the Boer War, whilst commanding the 8th Mounted Infantry at Bothaville on 6th November 1900, during a surprise attack on De Wet's Boer Commando, his lower jaw was destroyed by a bullet and he nearly died.

 

The sketch is by Fred A Farrell from his “The 51st Division War Sketches”

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22 minutes ago, Knotty said:

Thanks for the clue UG which gave me the 51st Highland Division.

 

He is Brigadier-General Sir W. C. Ross, K.B.E., C.B., C.M.G. who was given command of 152 Infantry Brigade in Nov 1914, and the 1st Highland Brigade 1915/16, then on to the 228 Brigade in Salonika from 1916 to the end of hostilities.

 

His beard was grown to cover the result of an incident during the Boer War, whilst commanding the 8th Mounted Infantry at Bothaville on 6th November 1900, during a surprise attack on De Wet's Boer Commando, his lower jaw was destroyed by a bullet and he nearly died.

 

The sketch is by Fred A Farrell from his “The 51st Division War Sketches”

 

Correct on all counts. Well done indeed.

 

" ... Nor was their agony brief, or once only imposed on them. 
    The wounded, the war-spent, the sick received no exemption: 
    Being cured they returned and endured and achieved our redemption ... "

 

 

image.jpg

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And this chap?    There is a link with Brigadier-General Ross, above.   Our man did not survive the war.  He looks like a young Arthur Tedder  but is not.  Our man never saw front-line service, being described as  "poor boy" by Sister Agnes (That's a big clue) (And,No, not the lovely Miranda Richardson in "Blackadder")

    No cheating now- the name will come up with a mouse over the pic. Too thick to remove it

 

hr-lumley1.jpg?w=645

Edited by Guest
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And this chap?    There is a link with Brigadier-General Ross, above.   Our man did not survive the war.  He looks like a young Arthur Tedder  but is not.  Our man never saw front-line service, being described as  "poor boy" by Sister Agnes (That's a big clue) (And,No, not the lovely Miranda Richardson in "Blackadder")

No cheating now- the name will come up with a mouse over the pic. Too thick to remove it

hr-lumley1.jpg?w=645

Too generous of a clue! He is Henry Lumley. "Not for the squeamish" indeed.

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21 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

 

Too generous of a clue! He is Henry Lumley. "Not for the squeamish" indeed.

 

 Well yes, it is squeamish-but only up to a point Lord Copper. The story of Henry Lumley is but one of the myriad tragedies we call "The Great War".  Yes, it is good to remember Harold Gillies, Macindoe and the developments in plastic surgery -particularly maxilofacial- but it was not a happy progress to a fore-destined end. It was a road marked with tragedy and loss-Henry Lumley was one. Too simplistic to say that "we learned from our mistakes" when "mistake" was a synonym for" death"

    The Great War has become far too tidy. Not for the squeamish . But surely war is just squeamishness writ large?    It's one reason why I do not like the present set-up at IWM-  if you go there then,apart from the poppy motif hither and thither, the colour red is conspicuously absent- and that is not an accident. Memorialisation is "managed" for present-day concerns and "outcomes".  We have a politically correct  Great War.  The pictures below of Henry :Lumley should be colourised and printed up on banners a hundred feet high and put outside IWM instead of the guns from HMS Terrible. But that might put off children from coming to the museum. And the tills would stop ringing.

  As Sherman said, "War is Hell" Not a bl***dy  theme park.

 

P33P6

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A politically correct Great War. I agree. But it was right I think for that website to put up the "not suitable for the squeamish" warning (which I was [mis]quoting). Many are easily offended, and one does not wish to give offence.

 

https://greatwarlondon.wordpress.com/2012/10/24/hr-lumley-facial-surgery/

 

The poppy has in my view been hijacked - a quiet symbol of gratitude and remembrance and contemplation has (witness the vulgar Tower of London display which was so unaccountably lauded) become more about the artist than anything else.

 

 

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A harrowing story that needs telling M. V. An excellent find.

 

Pete.

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Real Poppy Earrings

Real Poppy Earrings
£25.00

     Available from IWM Shop Online.  But the motif must work-whenever I wear the poppy earrings it always causes comment. As if.

 

   Henry Lumley was not put up as an excuse for a rant. I came across him doing a bit of reading for another RFC accident casualty who is local. But it does remind us that something considered generally "good" as an outcome-developments in medicine such as plastic surgery come at the cost of the deaths of many of the servicemen involved- a process that could not  take place in peacetime if that number of deaths had resulted in a medical "advance". Never get past NICE and Medical Research Council. A reminder that even for medicine, then lives were more "expendable" in a "good cause". An old friend- a retired medical researcher was thinking of doing a book on all of this sort of stuff-transplants, Tycho Brahe's nose, Washington's teeth- all the "make and mend" that medicine has devised- he even had the title-"Breaking for Parts". 

  We can colourise black and white pictures, retrieve the written word, record veterans,etc- the one thing we cannot re-create is-thankfully- pain.  Look at the recent WIT- Gordon Harker-left with a permanent limp from war wounds-literally, for him, the war lasted with every step he took for the rest of his life.

    How much of our modern stock of what is "good" history about the Great War has been massaged-accidentally or by delliberate act-is something that intrigues me. I fear that many veterans of the Great War would not recognize,say,what IWM is offering as compatible with their experience. And the big question in all this- Are we remembering the past-or  manipulating  the future?

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I fear that many veterans of the Great War would not recognize,say,what IWM is offering as compatible with their experience. And the big question in all this- Are we remembering the past-or  manipulating  the future?

It could well be argued (by me, anyway) that the history of any major event cannot be completed until all those who have taken part in it have died, since their experiences are influenced by their recollections of their part in it and cannot, therefore, be regarded as technically unbiased.

 

We have to begin by re-naming Captain Dunn's famous book as "The War in France that 2nd Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers Knew."

 

Ron

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58 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

It could well be argued (by me, anyway) that the history of any major event cannot be completed until all those who have taken part in it have died, since their experiences are influenced by their recollections of their part in it and cannot, therefore, be regarded as technically unbiased.

 

We have to begin by re-naming Captain Dunn's famous book as "The War in France that 2nd Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers Knew."

 

Ron

 

   Thanks Ron- I must, I fear, correct you on one small point  . The sub-title of Captain Dunn's book is " Chronicle of Service in France and Belgium"- not just France.  Dunn's book is a case in point of one issue. He compiled it AFTER the war (Book published 1930-something)with access to his own and the other diaries of which he had use Nothing Dunn has is-as far as I  know- not founded on first-hand account. There are problems with the selection of the records of others by him A literary amalgam represents the outlook of the editor, rather than than a value-free selection based on a true reflection of diaries. A modern editor using the same materials might pull together a completely different selection. 

    As to the  view that recollections by those who are involved are biased- well, yes of course they are.  What concerns me is that "recollections" vary across the passage of time.  A recurring problem with oral history is that the interviewee may give the answers that the interviewer wishes to hear- let alone the problem of how the interviewer phrases the question (best exemplified by Caroline Aherne as Mrs Merton to Debbie McGee-"What was it that first attracted you to multi-millionaire Paul Daniels?).  

 

     I have an example of this in my own family. My dear old Dad was an airborne signaller at Arnhem- Royal Corps of Signals, went in on Day 2,wounded by German flak on the way in). A humble private-spoke very little about it and died the year after "A Bridge Too Far" came along at the cinema. He was critical of the Cornelius Ryan book as it was officer-centric and one officer in particular- not long departed- who often pops up in accounts of Arnhem. I will not name him on GWF but you may take an informed guess. Dad used to say that this man had a very selective memory and most of his encounters with this man showed him as not so glorious  (And anyone who has seen-yet again on Junko TV the D-Day episode of "World at War" must come close to retching as Mountbatten gives a glossed version of his role in Dieppe and  how it was all part of his wonderful master plan- Ludo Kennedy's pen portrait of him in "On My Way to the Club"  lances that particular unctuous ego).  

     But "History" is what we choose to regard as "true".  I like very much the "Great War" interviews-if only because-as Edwardians- all the Brits. in it speak as we would expect them to speak-plummy as with Henry Williamson and "Gor Blimey" from the Other Ranks. Also liked the "Game of Ghosts" stuff-where the "selection" was more by the chance of longevity (and lack of ga-ga)  which came across as convincing.  [And as it is on another thread at the moment- my understanding of the importance of the Great War intervews of the 1960s would be much better if the BBC paperwork about it-eg What Questions to Ask?- was freely available)

   One of my favourite films is the 1946 "Best years of Our Lives"-mawkish,sentimental and stylised by our outlook of today but -just perhaps- there were many of the Great War who felt the same. Certainly, my relatives and neighbours of the Second World War generation regarded it as so- despite the miseries and hardships. I suspect that it was so for the Great War as well but the narrative of the grim Western Front is the one that prevails.

Edited by Guest
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The chap on the left here had a very interesting and busy war. And, indeed, an interesting and busy life. As an officer in the Royal Marines he was captured at Antwerp; but he did not remain a prisoner of war for long. He ended the Second war as an RAF Group Captain.

 

The officer on the right also had an interesting time. Who are they ? ? ?

 

 

image.jpg

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Chap on the right looks like George VI.

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59 minutes ago, Nepper said:

Chap on the right looks like George VI.

 

'Tis him - well spotted (I don't think I'd have recognised him, had I not seen the photograph's caption). I see he was the first member of the royal family to qualify as a pilot. 

 

And now he's been identified ...

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Wasn't Louis Greig also George VI's tennis partner at Wimbledon?

EDIT: Yes - see first link above.

 

Ron

Edited by Ron Clifton
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5 hours ago, Uncle George said:

I see that the Daily Fail with its immaculate reputation for accuracy also manages to identify Greig as Edward VIII http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5035979/Air-throne-100-years-Royal-flight-celebrated.html

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Another cricketer:

cricket1913b.jpg.91cf9960b191b8372c95ef0248a1fe59.jpg

Who is the young man in the multi-coloured blazer? (A special reservist and got a mention.)

RM

Edited by rolt968
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17 hours ago, Nepper said:

I see that the Daily Fail with its immaculate reputation for accuracy also manages to identify Greig as Edward VIII http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5035979/Air-throne-100-years-Royal-flight-celebrated.html

 

I see that Paul Dacre lives at Langwell, once the residence of the Duke of Portland. The Duke and this estate are described in lengthy and unctuous terms by Robertson in the last chapter of 'From Private to Field Marshal'. Perhaps he is trying to show how far he has come, but it's all a little embarrassing:

 

" ... The Duke is not only an excellent all-round sportsman himself, but does everything he can to ensure that his guests have good sport and plenty of it. Whenever I go to Langwell, or think of the pleasant days I have spent there, I find it difficult not to break the tenth commandment." For the benefit of any Wykehamists [and so on].

  

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37 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

A good try. My man was a little younger. The photo was taken in 1913. His captain was sitting on his left (trimmed off by me).

He was a Cricketer of the Year.

His family were quite horsey. I think both he and his father were MFHs.

A hussar attached to lancers.

Arrived in theatre 17 August 1914.

RM

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On 31/05/2018 at 11:21, Uncle George said:

The chap on the left in #10177 was called Louis Greig. (Image from a Wills's cigarette card)

Louis Greig started life as one of mine (naval surgeon). 

sJ

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On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 19:49, rolt968 said:

A good try. My man was a little younger. The photo was taken in 1913. His captain was sitting on his left (trimmed off by me).

He was a Cricketer of the Year.

His family were quite horsey. I think both he and his father were MFHs.

A hussar attached to lancers.

Arrived in theatre 17 August 1914.

RM

His last pre-war match, which he had to leave as he had been mobilised is supposed to have been fictionalised (?)  in Alec Waugh's Loom of Youth.

RM

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