Robert Dempsey Irish Guards. Help with DCM Mystery please.

[depaor01]

Hi all,

My role as a library local studies researcher has put me in contact with an elderly gentleman whose uncle of the same surname was mentioned by name and number in the 1^st Irish Guards’ regimental diaries and subsequently Gazetted for an award of a DCM for taking part in a bombing raid in Cuinchy on the 10^th of August 1915. However, somewhere along the line, 4868 Pte. Robert Dempsey’s act of bravery and award has been “reassigned” to another man bearing the same surname – 4039 Bernard Dempsey.

The relative of Robert Dempsey has assembled an impressive array of documentation and brought it through many official channels, but is being told either scant information or that it was a case of mistaken identity due to the “Fog of War”. The latter is, he believes, incorrect and I’m inclined to agree.

I have to spread over three posts - 10 images in all.

Given the breadth and depth of knowledge on this forum, and without casting any aspersions on the people who have already dismissed it as a mistake, could anyone on this forum come up with a different answer that might give some clarity for Robert Dempsey’s nephew?

Here’s the evidence:

Regimental diary entry for 1^st Irish Guards showing 4868 Robert Dempsey being awarded the DCM:

Evening Telegraph newspaper article re. DCM with photo of Robert Dempsey:

London Gazette showing Robert Dempsey’s mention. There was never (as far as I can ascertain) any subsequent Gazette entry retracting the award from Robert:

Page from R. W. Walker’s book “Recipients of the Distinguished Conduct Medal 1914 to 1920 showing award to 4868 Robert Dempsey:

[depaor01]

Page from Kipling’s book (unfortunately only mentioning a surname so of limited use here):

Two forms from Guinness’s brewery where Robert worked after demob. Both show his DCM award. I wonder if Robert had to show proof of the award to his employer and, if so, what form would that proof take?

All compelling evidence that he was decorated for bravery. Now here’s where things go in a different direction:

Army Casualty Form B103 with a complete account of his action. This is crossed out and “Cancelled. Inserted in Error” written across the paragraph (the sticker is a later addition to the photocopy and not relevant)

Medal Index Card showing 4868 Pte. Robert Dempsey’s medal entitlement, but the number has been crossed out and the card has been renamed to 4039 B. (Bernard) Dempsey:

[depaor01]

Another MIC to 4868 Pte. Robert Dempsey showing only an annotation “Enquiry re award of gallantry medals” and a reference of 68/Foot Gds/193 - we have been unable to get any info about what that reference means, or if the document exists:

To cap it all, here we have a piece of newsreel footage from the IWM showing the “other” Pte. Dempsey – Bernard Dempsey receiving the DCM from the King!

It appears 7 minutes 10 seconds in – scene 15. Titled “Pte B. Dempsey D.C.M For conspicuous gallantry at Cuinchy when he accompanied an officer on a successful and daring reconnaissance of the enemy’s lines”.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060023463

After the war Robert Dempsey joined the IRA and was involved in some bombing activity. This has made his nephew believe that the DCM was forfeited because of this fact.

I get the feeling that if the DCM had been indeed officially forfeited for IRA activity, his nephew, Liam, would be quite happy with this “verdict” and be able to move on. As things stand though, nobody can find any evidence of any official “withdrawal” of the DCM for any reason in the Gazette or anywhere else. All we have is a crossing out of official entries with no explanation.

Any shred of additional information, no matter how small would be fantasic.

Thanks for your time!

Dave

[ss002d6252]

Is it known that 4868 Dempsey was an officers batman ?.

Is it also possible that that both Dempsey's were involved in the action and both awarded the medal (a long shot...).

Have you seen Bernard Dempsey's service record ?

Craig

[depaor01]

Hi Craig,

From the info we have there's no evidence he was a batman. The two men being awarded is unlikely as all of Robert's documents have the details crossed out leaving Bernard as the recipient.

Dave

I have checked Ancestry and can't locate a service record for Bernard Dempsey.

Edited 29 June , 2014 by depaor01

[ss002d6252]

So, does anyone know how the picture came to be in the newspaper ? . If the family had been notified some how and and contacted the paper (or were contacted by them) then a story could have been run before it was realised their was an error - the obvious problem with this is who notified them, surely Robert would have realised if he was nominated for something he hadn't been involved in before he had time to tell the family.

It certainly seems more than the occasional fictitious medal claim that pops up from time to time.

Craig

[depaor01]

Thanks Craig.

All agreed. Dishonesty can't be ruled out of course, but it's interesting that the war diary and Gazette don't reflect the changes in the other official documents.

The newspaper is defunct as far as I know so that avenue is closed.

Dave

[ss002d6252]

Hi Craig,

From the info we have there's no evidence he was a batman. The two men being awarded is unlikely as all of Robert's documents have the details crossed out leaving Bernard as the recipient.

Dave

I have checked Ancestry and can't locate a service record for Bernard Dempsey.

I think the guards records were held by the individual regiments and have not yet been digitized.

Craig

[Loader]

I wonder why the officer who recommended him for the award did not say anything about such an error? Unless he was dead by the time the award was made. Seems if he was aware of it he was the one who should've pointed out that something had gone wrong.

I thought if an award was withdrawn it was announced in the LG for all to see.

[ss002d6252]

Does the diary entry for the 2nd August give any clues ?. The book does state the captain went out twice so there's the chance it was a different man each time...

It sounds like the captain wasn't overly popular with his boss afterwards.

Craig

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Irish Guards service records will be available from their Regimental Headquarters at Birdcage Walk, London.

Did you get the B103 shown from Irish Guards or off Ancestry?

My experience with Coldstream Guards is that their service files have been "culled" over the years and only the bare bones remain.

Good Luck

Steve Y

[Blackblue]

Is it possible 4868 is the wrong man and this was corrected? They don't cross such things out in Service Papers without good reason,

Rgds

Tim D

[depaor01]

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

Craig: "Does the diary entry for the 2nd August give any clues ?. The book does state the captain went out twice so there's the chance it was a different man each time..."

Haven't seen the diary and I suppose your scenario is possible. Until such time as some documentation for Bernard Dempsey comes to light we'll be none the wiser. However the unretracted Gazette entry would be unusual (or would it?)

Steve: "Did you get the B103 shown from Irish Guards or off Ancestry?"

I believe most of the documentation given to me was from the Irish Guards, not Ancestry.

Tim: "Is it possible 4868 is the wrong man and this was corrected? They don't cross such things out in Service Papers without good reason"

It is possible, but we still have the unretracted Gazette entry, the "uncorrected" war diary, the newspaper report, Walker's book and the employment records which presumably would have to have been backed up by an official document of some kind. To take your second point, "entered in error" may be a good reason, but a bit short on detail especially in light of the war diary evidence.

Thanks,

Dave

[RaySearching]

Whilst this may not help

4039 Bernard Dempsey's service records have survived

They show the award of the DCM

regards Ray

Edit mis-transcribed by Anc*** as 4059

[museumtom]

Bernard was from Quarry Street, Thurles and also won the Cross of St George. ''he is one of the most unassuming of men. Able to give a graphic description of war’s ways on the western front he entertains no delusions as to the seriousness of the colossal struggle and therefore indulges in no swash-buckling nonsense.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Thurles_Town/Quarry/1716096/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Thurles_Urban/Thurles_Urban_District/828987/

[Blackblue]

Cheers Dave,

It only would have required one error. I think its probable the wrong number being recorded on the original recommendation. All other documentation has followed from this error, until someone has put two and two together. The MIC, London Gazette, War Diary and the newspaper article are directly related.

PTE B.Dempsey is the man who receives the DCM from the King (in 1916 well before the troubles) and he looks somewhat different to the photo in the newspaper article.

Gore-Langton was KIA on 10 Oct 1915.

Rgds

Tim D

[ss002d6252]

Haven't seen the diary and I suppose your scenario is possible. Until such time as some documentation for Bernard Dempsey comes to light we'll be none the wiser. However the unretracted Gazette entry would be unusual (or would it?)

The LG search is so abysmal that it could have been withdrawn and yet not showing in the search.

Craig

[RaySearching]

Just a bit extra on Bernard

Pte 4039 Bernard Dempsey

Transferred to Labour Corps Pte 623326

Served 3/2/12 to 21/6/19

Discharged sickness SWB number b275083

regards Ray

[depaor01]

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions

Raysearcher that is a gem of a find. I had foolishly searched for his surname and number hence didn't find Bernard.

I suppose a trip to Guinness's might be in order (yippee!) to find out if they have any answer re the employment records which state (twice) that Robert had been awarded a DCM.

Cheers,

Dave

Museumton:

Your quote is very interesting. You do turn up some amazing stuff!

Ta,

Dave

Edited 1 July , 2014 by depaor01

[spof]

I'm probably being thick here but.......

If 4039 Bernard Dempsey was awarded a DCM for a raid in August 1915, why can't I find at least a 14-15 Star for him?

[depaor01]

I'm probably being thick here but.......

If 4039 Bernard Dempsey was awarded a DCM for a raid in August 1915, why can't I find at least a 14-15 Star for him?

All input welcome, so not thick at all!

I don't know the reason it can't be found ("absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" seems to apply to this whole story!),

but his service records show this:

Cheers,

Dave

[ss002d6252]

I'm probably being thick here but.......

If 4039 Bernard Dempsey was awarded a DCM for a raid in August 1915, why can't I find at least a 14-15 Star for him?

He has 14 star card on Ancestry under B Dempsey - date of entry 21 Aug 1914.

Craig

[spof]

Thanks chaps.

[Guest SWINFORD DCM]

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060023463

This might help....see footage after 7 mins

[Guest SWINFORD DCM]

Sorry, on closer inspection I realise that I wasn't much help as you had already located that footage. Do you know anything about my ancestor, Pte J Henry DCM who directly followed on after Pte Dempsey?