Searching for John W? Innocent R.E. 558145

[wbab06]

Newbie here. Looking for any info on John W? Innocent. I have found his enlistment form or actually, what remains of it, due to the fire? His initial service number
on that form is 1573, Royal Engineers, his address on the form is 46 Roberts Rd., Walthamstow. I have also found his medal card which has the same service number and a re-number of 558145. His rank is SPR which I assume is Sapper. The theatre of war is #3, Egypt as of March 1915. On LLT I found the renumbering would have him in the 1/1 London Divisional Signals COY, which was a territorial unit, which is also a heading on the enlistment form. I have found that that unit became the signals coy of the 29th Division which indicates service at Gallipoli. Evidently he survived as the medal card seems to indicate, from what I've read, a status of reserves, 'Z' as of July of 1917. Any other info would be greatly appreciated as I have been unable to find anything further on Ancestry or Find My Past. Best Regards and Thanks in advance. Great Forum!

[anthony P]

Hi wbab06

Welcome to the Forum.

John Innocent.

Born 1884. Attested 27th November 1914, Bethnal Green. 1st London Division T.F. Royal Engineers Number 1573.

Embarked Southampton for Egypt. 30 March 1915 transferred to 1st London Division Signals Coy, Number 558175.

Appointed Lance Corporal 27th November 1918.

Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve 27th June 1919.

Occupation, Cabinet Maker. Next of kin wife Maud, married 23rd December 1900.

Address at demob, 67, Diana Road, Walthamstow, E17.

M.I.C. Victory, British, and 1915 Star.

Hope this is of help.

Regards

Tony

[wbab06]

Hello Tony,
Thanks for all of the info that you have posted. Yes, gives me more to go on. I wondered about the renumber on the medal card as top right beneath the original 1573 no. looks to be 558145 yet beneath on the reserve entry it does look like 558175. I wondered if it was just a handwriting 'typo' if you will. I assume that your info is from records at Kew? Was I correct in that rank on the card was Sapper? Also, on the upper right of the enlistment form it seems to be faintly hand written 'wheelwright' which I assumed was his occupation at that time.
Now, to get into the actual reason for my research. I have a Webley revolver which according to Webley & Scott records, was purchased by a Lt. J.W. Innocent R.E. in London in June of 1912. I have been unable to find any other J. (W.) Innocent R.E. and therefore am interested in finding if this man is indeed the same individual. I cannot explain the rank given at the time of original purchase of the Webley, unless obviously a different individual, or falsification, however as I mentioned, in my research thus far this John Innocent is the only one answering to also being in the R.E.'s, and enlisting in London.
Thanks again for your input. The research continues.
Best Regards,
wbab06

[anthony P]

Hi wbab06

The information came from his War Pension records on Ancestry.

He was with the 1st London Territorial Force before enlisting for service over seas. I would not of thought he held the rank of

Lt before signing as he enlisted as a Private.

Given his age on enlistment 32 he was probable in the T.F. for a number of years.

His address when enlisting was 46, Roberts Road, Chapel, Walthamstow. Don't know if this is of help.

And yes he would have been a "Sapper".

My be not the same man.

Regards

Tony

[IPT]

I wonder if your man was based in China?

The father of Lt Arthur Innocent, J.W. Innocent, is described as Commissioner of Customs in "Hangchow", China - http://canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetailPrint.asp?ID=130742

In a 1907 Shanghai document, he is described as Captain, Customs Company - http://www.bniao.org/Asset/Source/bnPeriodical_ID-41_No-1.pdf and in 1904 was a Lieutenant. Doesn't quite fit, but could be a possible.

[wbab06]

Hello IPT,
I did find a Jonathan Willie Innocent in China from 1877 -1908 as you pointed out, and in the customs service reaching Captain in 1907. According to Find My Past, he retired from the customs service in 1921 and passed away in England in 1947. He was listed as born in Truro in 1857 which seems to make him too old. I hadn't been able to find any connection for the period between 1907 and WWI and if he was back in England then returning to China and customs service after the war. I found a picture of him while in the customs service in China sporting a magnificent handlebar, looking like the perfect Webley owner. His father was also in China as a missionary for a long time. So, in short I thought that a possibility too, but as mentioned the lead stops there.

Tony, Hello Again
Thanks again too. The rank difference does seem strange and causes me to wonder if indeed a different individual. I'm in the US and hence not familiar with the T.F. before the war. Did rank in the T.F. carry over to enlisted service or would it be completely different? Could he have been a Lt. in the T.F. then enlisted as a private in the regular army, or would one just transfer into the army?
Yes his enlistment form lists him as at 46 Roberts Rd. And, neither medal card or enlistment form has him with a middle initial of W. which complicates too. In fact on the medal card all is written in red, and only the first letter of his name 'J' & surname 'Innocent' too, but the renumbering and the 'ohn ' of his first name John, is in blue ink. As if filled in later at the time of the renumbering. Not that it means a great deal. Go figure.
Thanks

[veklee]

On the walthamstow roll his down as Jonathan 558175

[wbab06]

Hello veklee,
Thanks for the input. Makes things even more interesting.
Regards

[wbab06]

Hello All,

Haven't been on this site for ages.

Anyway still trying to search for info on my initial requested soldier.

Haven't found anything more. 

Trying to get a copy of the attestation document to download, but cannot seem to locate where to do so. I do have the medal record card downloaded.

The site at Kew doesn't seem to allow registration to do so.

Best to all,

 

[Mark1959]

Service papers still exist for 1573 John Innocent. here on ancestry. This shows he spent a year in the Middle East (March 1915-March 1916) and 6 months in France/Flanders (Mar 1916-Sept 1916). A lot of the writing is hard to read and it will take some time to plough through. Over 30 pages. 

His attestion states no previous service and therefore is presumably not the JW innocent you refer to in the first post. 

1573 lived in Walthamstow

In 1911 census they are in Bethnal Green. He appears as Jonathan. Maud is his wife. Aged 32.The age he claims to be on enlistment on Nov 1914. Same in 1901 aged 22. In 1901 he is a chair maker and in 1911 a table maker. They married 23/12/1900. her maiden name is Emery,

Is that the man you are looking for? As I say it does not appear to be the owner of the gun, Basically getting no further than you did on that!

 

 

Edited 17 February , 2020 by Mark1959

[wbab06]

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, that would seem to confirm that he is not the man I'm searching for.

I have found nothing elsewhere. Other than the possibility of that J. W. Innocent,

customs officer, China, previously mentioned in posts that I also found in my searching. Have tried further research into him, have gotten nowhere there as well.

Thanks Again and Best Regards to All!

The search continues!

 

 

 

[veklee]

he is on avl as living at 46 Roberts rd as well as diane rd one as Johnathan and one as john

[travers61]

On 18/02/2020 at 12:05, wbab06 said:

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, that would seem to confirm that he is not the man I'm searching for.

I have found nothing elsewhere. Other than the possibility of that J. W. Innocent,

customs officer, China, previously mentioned in posts that I also found in my searching. Have tried further research into him, have gotten nowhere there as well.

Thanks Again and Best Regards to All!

The search continues!

 

 

 

 

Have checked the indexes to The London Gazette:

June 10th 1909: Jonathan Willie INNOCENT is awarded the Imperial Chinese Order of The Double Dragon (First Class of the Third Division) by the Emporer of China for valuable services rendered.

July 9th 1915:  Jonathan Willie INNOCENT is awarded the Third Class order of The Excellent Crop by the Republic of China for valuable services rendered.

 

Articles in the index to the British Newspaper archive at his confirm that he was a Commissioner in the Chinese Maritime Customs, but with no dates.

 

1901 Census he is living in Bedford, not shown on 1911 so presumably in China.

[Mark1959]

Have a look at this link - 1906 Directory

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jqXqXLxTW88C&pg=PA729&lpg=PA729&dq=j+w+innocent+china&source=bl&ots=qtg6Yltw_O&sig=ACfU3U2KbfQH9OCyDhz_LeA8NXzR1gcPbg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwvuDAh-PnAhVHfMAKHXNYAe0Q6AEwCnoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=j w innocent china&f=false

This indicates a rank of Lt. but in what?

It is a free E-book

Might be worth posting an image of the inscription on the gun

He also appears in 1909 and 1910

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f5VEAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA906&lpg=PA906&dq=j+w+innocent+china&source=bl&ots=AdFOFG87ou&sig=ACfU3U3VJrizeqfxiNaXb8hfsY_fYkGU0w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjA8fepiePnAhUQTsAKHeXgATIQ6AEwAHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=j w innocent china&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jItEAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA984&lpg=PA984&dq=j+w+innocent+customs&source=bl&ots=WIFkR4o7GZ&sig=ACfU3U1dcvwymptw9MUFWkMDHLTzZhJFCw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPrMfRiePnAhXURhUIHXlnDEgQ6AEwCXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=j w innocent customs&f=false

Edited 21 February , 2020 by Mark1959

[wbab06]

Hello Mark1959 & Travers61,

Thanks most interesting!

Info I've had that he was customs acting commisioner, then commisioner, at different cities, and was made a captain in that time frame from what I found.

He retired in '21, and passed away in '47 at Truro, UK.

He's the only 'military' officer that I've found as remotely possible. But then the question why as a lt., would he join the army as a private arose?

 

Now, to answer your post Mark1959, there is no inscription on my revolver. It is a Webley Fosbery and I have a research letter that references it's sale to a 'Lt. J. W. Innocent, R. E. in 1912.' by Webley, to the Army & Navy CSL and then by that store to him.

That being my initial clue into researching that individual. Then I found the man we've earlier referenced as a Royal Engineer, the only R. E. with that name thus far, and being from London where the revolver was purchased at the CSL store on Victoria St., London in 1912. Now seeming to prove not to be the right individual. Have gotten nowhere in any other forum, nor UK army records at Kew. Another lead was disproven when I found another lead on a different individual's service number, with the same initials and surname, that proved to be of navy service, so another false lead.

So maybe we're at a dead end?

Best to all!

Bill

[corisande]

No J W Innocent appears on the manifest of the SS  Suwa Maru that sailed from Shanghai to UK with some 110 would be volunteers fro the British Army

 

https://robertbickers.net/books/getting-stuck-in-for-shanghai/the-suwa-maru-contingent/

 

The contingent included men from the Chinese Maritime Customs

[wbab06]

Thankyou corisande!

A bit more to confirm that he too was not my man.

Best Regards,

Bill

 

 

[helpjpl]

The gun was purchased in June 1912 by a Lt J W Innocent. Has anyone checked Hart's Army List prewar for an officer of that name?

 

JP

 

 

[charlie962]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate this duplicates much of post 5,6 but it still seems a possible ? edit and 14,15

Edited 21 February , 2020 by charlie962

[wbab06]

Thankyou helpjpl!

Obviously it seems that you searched on the Glasgow college site that has those Webley records.???

I tried your suggestion of going to Hart's list and under army Sappers & Miners in 1912 and going page by page haven't found anything. But going there it is a 'bit'

overwhelming, to say the least, and under the casualties listing too is almost impossible as it is so blurry I cannot even try reading going page by page.

Best Regards,

Bill

 

 

[corisande]

As far as I can see, the most likely explanation is that the gun was purchased by Jonathan Willie Innocent of the Chinese Maritime Customs.

 

He appears not to have served in WW1, probably on account of his age, born 1857. This website - click - has a small CV. No mention of WW1

 

British. Jonathan Willie Innocent was born in 1857 at Truro, Cornwall. His father was a Missionary to China. Innocent joined the IMC as an Assistant on probation in July 1877. He married Edith Janet Wadman from Sussex at Ningpo in about 1884; they had 5 known children, all born in China. He retired in March 1921 when he was Commissioner at Wuhu. Innocent died on 16 May 1947 at Tunbridge Wells, Kent.

 

There is a substantial write up on his father -  click for his father´s missionary work

 

His rank appears to come from his service with the Shanghai Volunteers and hence would not have been in London Gazette (I invite anyone to prove me wrong on that)

 

Lt in  Apr 1905 and Capt on 18 Sep 1907. The fact that he was a Capt in 1907 and the gun bought in 1912 as Lt, is the only flaw. I could speculate on the reasons, but it would just be that speculation

 

 

 

As he appears to have travelled between China and London on a number of occasions, it is possible that he bought the gun on one of these visits. China shipping records are not complete, so I doubt that you can prove it

 

I think that you have gone as far as is possible without more info - such as his address or full name when he bought the gun.

 

What one can say is that Innocent is a very unusual name. WO339 which is the file for Regular Officers in WW1 has only 4 men called Innocent. So whilst one cannot be 100% certain that this is your J W  Innocent, you can be reasonably sure

 

 

 

Edited 22 February , 2020 by corisande

[wbab06]

Hi Again corisande,

Many thanks for your input. That info is and has been as close as I have come in this search thus far.

I have kept retuning to this J. W. Innocent but obviously there have been and are inconsistancies. Rank for one, and Royal Engineers secondly (army vs. Maritime customs) for another. Timeline fits, so that is relevant. Why would he, if it is the same individual, give false info when making the purchase? I would think he would have had every right and ability as other military officers had, to provide their own ' kit' as is commonly referred to in the services. I assume that that service was the equivelant of any other military service.

I have thought the same as far as repeated trips to and from China to the UK, but you are the first to also suggest same. Also, as you say, records are incomplete.

I would think that a Lt. in the maritime service at that time would be armed in his duties enforcing regs. much like a police officer then and nowadays.

Also as you thought, his age could explain service there and his not appearing to have gone back during the war.

At one time I had found a picture of him as I mentioned in my early post, but have been unable to find it again, it was in a maritime customs book of that time frame, sporting a beautiful handlebar mustache. Got to keep searching for that alone!

A conundrum for sure!

Many thanks again, and best regards from the U. S.

Bill

 

 

[travers61]

There is a picture here of a group including a Mrs Innocent at "Blossoms", near Chefoo in 1898.

https://www.hpcbristol.net/visual/ca02-007

 

Seems lots of information here about the University of Bristol's Chinese Maritime Customs Project

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/history/customs/