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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Capture of Major Yate


shippingsteel

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With the centenary of the opening battles of the war in 1914 rapidly approaching, I have been doing some research into the Battle of Le Cateau in particular.

Specifically in regard to the weaponry that was being used at the time, especially the arms of the German line regiments participating in the early encounters.

So I have come across this well known photograph which supposedly depicts the said Major C.A.L. Yate VC soon after the battle in the clutches of the enemy.

From what I can see this picture raises more questions than it answers, in regard to the circumstances and time it was taken, and exactly who the troops are.?

Is this photo taken upon his capture, or later while in a POW situation.? I note some oddities with the weaponry and kit of his captors (rifles, bayonets, pouches)

Now if this shot IS taken at the time of capture and amongst the German troops who participated in the battle, it would go against most people's understanding.

From what I can gather the concensus has been that the front-line German troops in 1914 were equipped with the Gewehr 98 rifle with a quillback S98 bayonet.

Any thoughts on anything that is shown in this photo would be greatly appreciated. (Personally I think there may be clues not just in the arms but also in uniforms)

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-13956400-1399089900_thumb.j

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Yes I have been through all the controversy about his escapes and then apparent suicide, but this is a 'mystery' photo which in my opinion doesn't fit it's caption.

This photo is particularly intriguing as I believe it shows possibly Bavarian troops equipped with the Gewehr 88 rifle (note bolt, magazine & side-mounted bayonet)

And the bayonet is a short, knife style weapon which I think can only be the S71/84 model, which would fit the Gew 88, but which was only still in Bavarian service.

There are many more such clues in this photo I am sure, but I was hoping to get some other opinions from any of the forum experts regarding the visible kit & arms.

Cheers, S>S

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Don't know much about uniforms (or anything at all really, in some people's opinion!) but from my very limited knowledge and bearing in mind the quality of the photograph, I would hazard a guess that the bottom Kokarde (buttons) on the feldmützen represent one of the following: the white, blue, white of Bavaria; the white, green, white of Saxony; or white, double red ring, white of Hessen; or just possibly the white, red, white of Bremen. They are pretty certainly not one of the states/places with a full colour centre, e.g., the Prussian white and black, or the Wuerttemburg, black, red, black.

Why not move this to uniforms?

Trajan

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The caption under the picture implies that he was captured after being severely wounded. He doesn't look severely wounded in the picture.

Nigel

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The caption under the picture implies that he was captured after being severely wounded. He doesn't look severely wounded in the picture.

Nigel

Yes, there has been quite a lot of discussion on that! See e.g.:

http://1914-1918.inv...=197372&hl=yate

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Yes the whole incident of his capture (which incidentally was a VC action) and his later escape and death has been shrouded in controversy since the start.

Here is the VC citation: “Major Yate (deceased), 2nd Battalion The King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, commanded one of the two companies that remained to the end in the trenches at Le Cateau on August 26, and when all the other officers were killed or wounded and ammunition exhausted, led his 19 survivors against the enemy in a bayonet charge in which he was severely wounded. He was picked up by the enemy and he subsequently died as a prisoner of war.”

He was only in the hands of the Germans for less than a month, as he was captured on the 26th August at Le Cateau and then later died on the 20th September 1914.

So the date of the photo is pretty much constrained between those dates. You would think it must have been somewhat staged by the Germans as a propaganda shot.

Cheers, S>S

EDIT. Note the shoulder boards of the 4 German troops surrounding the Major have all been unbuttoned and are rolled back. Possibly to prevent identification.??

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OK, those are M 1895 pouches aren't they? Brandenburg cuffs on a light blue uniform? Not Hessian, I don't think, as the buckle is wrong - on the basis of my very limited experience and knowledge, that is!

I'll check further when I get home (in office after today's field practical surveying)

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SS, Yours came in while I was writing the above. What do you think re: the button colours? IIRC correctly, I think Carter says the 71/84 continued in service with Bavarian Landsturm units with Gew. 88 rifles only into WWI, as they had so many in stock!

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The belt buckle shown left centre certainly could be a Bavarian buckle, just going on the shape of the rings etc. And yes the early pattern Patronentaschen suggests Landwehr.

Thing is I had a look at the German OOB for Mons and Le Cateau and didn't notice any Bavarian units involved. Does anyone know if there were any in the German 1st Army.?

Cheers, S>S

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Not that I know very much but aren't those guys wearing pre-1910 tunics? That's why I mentioned the types of cuffs and the apparent colour of the tunic, matters easily established through simple research, and such uniforms were generally worn by Lanswehr / Landsturm troops in the early stages of WW1. And Bavaria started to issue the Gew.98 to regular troops between 1903-08. So what with the Gew.88 and S. 71/84, my money is on these being Bavarian Landwehr or Landstrurm troops and the photograph having been taken in a rear area. Perhaps not the Bavarian 1st Landwehr Division, they were in Alsace-Lorraine, and the 3rd and higher numbered units were in the East, according to my limited research facilities. So just possibly this is the 9. bayerische gemischte Landwehr-Brigade of the 2nd Landwehr Division? That's what my very limited research suggests as a possibility... But there again, I know very little about such things, just what I can find through consulting the literature I have, which is limited. And so I expect to get these suggestions / comments roughly and rapidly corrected soonish! But that's what the GWF is for - friendly discussion, exchange of ideas, and speculation!

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The belt buckle shown left centre certainly could be a Bavarian buckle, just going on the shape of the rings etc. And yes the early pattern Patronentaschen suggests Landwehr.

Thing is I had a look at the German OOB for Mons and Le Cateau and didn't notice any Bavarian units involved. Does anyone know if there were any in the German 1st Army.?

Cheers, S>S

SS - I am trying to help so please re-read and assimilate my earlier posts, nos. 5 and 11! :thumbsup: The belt buckle could be one of many (except Hessen!): that is why I stressed the appearance of the Kokarde ! Now I am home I have just checked with various photographs on the web, trying to be as thorough as possible with my research, and in several of those showing Bavarian soldiers the Kokarde looks the same as in the photograph in post no.1! In my very limited experience, aside from shoulder boards with numbers on and a very few other distinguishing characteristics (e.g., the badge of the 3rd battalion of the 2nd Brunswick infantry regiment), the bottom buttons on a field cap are the only way to identify national units.

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Well, Gordon Bennett, etc... Failed in my elementary research - not unusual for me, eh SS? :blush: I completely overlooked this post in the first of those GWF threads I listed above in post 2 which adds an interesting angle to your own research -

"Hello!

I am a new member from Germany and it was Major Yate who lead me to this Forum....Also I am wondering about the uniforms and equipment of the German soldiers. They do not wear the 1907/1910 uniforms weared by the infantry regiments 66 or 26, which were the opponents of 2/KOYLI at Le Cateau. The soldier at right in the back looks like a French soldier. So maybe the picture was taken at the prisoner camp.

Was it usual for captured British officers in 1914 to be invited to a German officer's mess, especially if they have been disliked so much as described in the magdeburg episode?

That is interesting! I did wonder about the guy at the right back with the funny hat - I wondered if he might be a Jaeger, but eventually decided he just have a puffed up field cap!

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EDIT. Note the shoulder boards of the 4 German troops surrounding the Major have all been unbuttoned and are rolled back. Possibly to prevent identification.??

Well done that man! Wondered when it would click! :thumbsup: But it is the field caps you should be looking at!

Does anyone know if there were any in the German 1st Army.?

Cheers, S>S

Well, I just did an elementary check via Google English (the German pages will have to wait for later!). They have for the 1st Army the 8. Bayerische Reserve-Division. But I still think (from their uniforms, rifles, bayonets and cartridge pouches) that this is a unit in the reserve area, Landstrurm or Landeswehr?

Why not research that line - surely there is something on this in a book I know you possess - "Imperial German Army, 1914-18: Organisation, Structure, Orders of Battle"? In the meantime, when I get some spare time, I will follow up on what I can find! - but bed-time here soon so I expect that you'll have an answer by the 'morn! Happy researching!

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Thanks for your help Trajan, but you should not assume that because someone asks a question on this forum, that they have no knowledge or research capability themselves.

I had these down as Bavarian troops from the start (which I did indicate in post #4) so I am not going to disagree with what your saying. Essentially, I do value others opinions.

Cheers, S>S

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Cheers! I do know you are well up in the research field but I was trying to help with your question in post no. 1, about whether the uniforms held any clues as to their identity! As you didn't seem to pick up on the bottom buttons I could not help but offer more assistance! If it is of no use then just ignore as many do when advice is offered!

Trajan

Edit: spelling correction and last sentence added

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I have been following this with interest. It would be difficult to ascertain if the photograph was taken just after capture or en-route to the camp. They had to be quite heavily protected from the German civilian population that bayed for the blood of the prisoners at that time and weren't opposed to taking matters into their own hands. It was one of the reasons given for them not taking any British officer to see his body. They couldn't guarantee their safety outside of the camp. At his point of capture a manager came across the scene and interceded as the workers who had found and challenged him were treating him roughly.

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It's highly likely that this photo was taken right after capture, within a few hours as he still has ALL his KIT with him as he would be in the field, save for sword and revolver. He even has his binoculars! So, Its doubtful he is in Germany, I do not think that the Germans would let him wear his entire 'Christmas tree' with binoculars into Germany. Must have been taken right after capture.

Thanks Trajan for putting SS in touch with my earlier thread, but like you had mentioned, I don't he read my thread in its entirety when ascertaining what I was trying to find out myself (since solved in that said thread) about Yate and his wherabouts which was at variance with the caption.

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I understand why this photo has been such a mystery to many, as it seems to contradict many of the reports of his capture, etc. This is why I posted it here again.

I know that it looks like it was taken immediately after his capture, simply because he still has his full kit and binoculars, but as stated above I do believe it's staged.

From the weapons and uniform of his captors, I do not think these troops were anywhere near Le Cateau. I think they are the POW camp guard well back in the rear.

You can see behind the Major to the right what appears to be a French Infantryman with the distinctive Kepi hat. No French POW at Le Cateau but plenty elsewhere.

The other important point is that these Germans appear to be Bavarian, none of which were in the OOB at Le Cateau or possibly even in the German 1st Army at all.

Simply from the fact this photo appeared in a newspaper at the time would indicate that it was 'allowed' to be released as propaganda, supporting the 'staged' theory.

Cheers, S>S

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SS, in your first post you said this:

'Now if this shot IS taken at the time of capture and amongst the German troops who participated in the battle, it would go against most people's understanding.'

Can you explain or expand on what you mean?

I am looking at the body language of Yate and those around him. Yate, I feel is looking beyond the camera at someone else. Possibly not the person taking the photograph. On the other hand the two men to the left of him (as you look at the photo) seem to be looking directly at the camera or person taking the photograph. The man in the kepi has always struck me as odd since I first saw the photograph.

Someone kindly posted a photograph of my granddad on the forum recently along with the four men captured with him. I think it was taken fairly soon after their capture but I think they were put under duress. They are not all looking at the camera. Some looking instead to their right of the camera - at someone else. And I have no doubt the photograph was used at some point for propaganda purposes.

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Here are some scans of the Order of Battle of the German 1st Army which were opposing the BEF firstly at Mons and shortly thereafter at the battle of Le Cateau.

At Le Cateau it was the III and IV Armee Korps which directly opposed the British positions in question. Can anyone see any Bavarian units present on these lists.?

Cheers, S>S

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SS, in your first post you said this:

'Now if this shot IS taken at the time of capture and amongst the German troops who participated in the battle, it would go against most people's understanding.'

Can you explain or expand on what you mean?

Yes sorry, we both posted at the same time there.! I am looking at this from a weapons and uniform perspective to determine which units were involved here.

So from that point of view, these particular Germans do not fit the bill for "front-line Prussian troops" of the 1st Army armed with all "the modern weapons" etc.

As someone who is interested more in the weapons side of the equation, these would appear to be armed as Reserve troops, and as Bavarians in particular.

And then we have the uniform side, of which I am only a casual observer (far from expert) however from what I can see the uniforms would support the above.

Cheers, S>S

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