Numbering in 1/3 Scottish Horse

[rolt968]

Does anyone know the pattern of numbering in Scottish Horse?

Farrier Sergeant James McGregor of 1/3 Scottish Horse (died 24 October 1915 in Malta) was number 86.

Since 3 Scottish Horse was formed in 1914, I assume that he was already serving in Scottish Horse, probably 1 SH since he came from Edzell but enlisted in Dunkeld.

Was 86 a Scottish Horse number rather than a 3 Scottish Horse number?

I think that he may have served in the Boer War, but there were a number of James McGregors in the IY. I thought I had found something conclusive, but I cannot now find it using findmypast's new search engine.

R.

[Guest Jamg68]

James McGregor was my great, great Uncle. I don't know about how they decided on the numbering. From his obituary it said that he had at some time been a coachman, and for a time the second coachman of the Duke of Argyll. He had also served in the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry in South Africa. When he joined up in the First World War, he had been a chauffeur for Walton and son, Cupar that was in August 1914.

So far I have been successful in locating his service records. It could be that they were among those destroyed.

[Guest]

Paul Nixon's site should help a bit Click

I'm no expert by any means, but 86 sounds pretty early.

LLT His date of entry into theatre of war suggests 1/1st Scottish Horse? (someone who really knows what they are talking about may come along soon)

Mike

[Guest]

There are two possibilities:

1. He was originally 1/1st Scottish Horse with an early pre-1908 number that was continued post the Hadldane reforms and the formation of the TF in 1908

2. He enlisted in 1914. Note number 447 joined the 1/3rd Scottish Horse on 18th Aug 1914, and given the large surge of recruits it is quite possible that at least 447 men joined in Aug 1814.

Given his rank, I suspect he was the former, not the latter. As new battalions were formed they would need experienced men from the original formations. WIthout his Service Records or Pension Records or evidence of pre-1908) service it will be difficult to tell for sure.

I have researched a few yeomanry Regiments and in most cases men with two digit numbers enlisted pre-1908 so I think he may well have been an 'original' from the Boer War days. Given he was 36 when he died, he was certainly old enough to have served in the Boer War.

MG

[roughdiamond]

Bored so had a trawl through the CWGC entries and found these men all 3 Scottish Horse

21 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/602373/McKECHNIE,%20L

56 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/606895/MASTERTON,%20J

68 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/326774/WORLING,%20CHARLES%20RUTHER

96 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/602166/CHALMERS,%20ARNOTT%20DAVID

109 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/602376/McLENNAN,%20K

156 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/381926/STEWART,%20W

192 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/602277/HENDERSON,%20P

Not only that, including those above and Sgt McGregor, there were 43 men listed with numbers between 10 and 917

35 were listed as 3rd SH on CWGC including 2 x 2/3rd who died in the UK, 1 man 771 Dods has a Pension record that shows him as 3rd Bn making 36.

6 showed no Bn on CWGC or Scottish National War Memorial and had no Pension, maybe SDGW will show something different? Those 6 were: - 49 Bruce, 324 Barton, 339 Munro, 826 Simpson, 867 McNab and 917 Samuel.

That leaves only one man 10 Mowbray listed as 2nd Bn http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/602413/MOWBRAY,%20C

Too much of a coincidence that there's only 1 man from 43 who is listed as not being 3rd Bn and 36 who are? I'll let you decide.

Sam

[Guest]

When the 1/3rd Scottish Horse was raised, numbering started from 1, and given they served overseas and saw action (initially at Gallipoli) we should not be surprised to see lots of low numbered 1/3rd Scottish Horse casualties. Most, but not all would be 1/3rd Recruits post 1914. Some (possibly only a small handful) would have been old Imperial Yeomen from pre-1908. To have a double digit number one would need to be an original Imperial Yeoman or a 3rd Scottish Horse recruit. The first four on the list above, being 23 or under obviously could not have been Boer War veterans on account of age. Within the 1/1st, 1/2nd and 1/3rd Scottish Horse the few Boer War veterans would have been spread about the three units in order to distribute experienced, talented NCOs across the three service units.

By way of comparison I have traced every surviving record for men in the Derbyshire Yeomanry from MICs, 1914-15 Star, BWM, VM, medal rolls, Pension Records, Service Records. When the men who went to Gallipoli on 27th April 1915 are sorted by number the earliest numbered man is 81 SSM Samuel Simms, whose Pension Records show joined the Derbyshire Imperial Yeomanry on 30th March 1900 and transferred to the TF's Derbyshire Yeomanry on 1st April 1908 continuing with his early number '81'. Over 1700 men served in the Derbyshire Imperial Yeomanry between the Boer War and the Great War, We know for example that 1784 Alfred Worley joined on 5th Aug 1914. Anyone with a number later than this must have been a Great War recruit. SSM Samuel Simms served disembarked in Egypt on 27th April 1915 in Egypt as did 251 other men with numbers between 81 and 1784 - so roughly half of this Yeomanry Regiment had been pre-War Territorials. The remainder enlisted after War was declared.

During the Great War most Yeomanry Regiments raised duplicate and triplicate units that used the same number sequence. Only the Scottish Horse and Lovat's Scouts had additional numbered units (Regiments); 1/1st, 1st 2nd, 1/3rd Scottish Horse and 1/1st and 1/2nd Lovat's Scouts - so it is easier to identify the early numbered ex Boer War men in most other Yeomanry units. Given the Imperial Yeomanry was embodied for the the Boer War (starting in 1899) and drew its Companies from the County Yeomanry regiments, most (all?) of these fifty odd regiments would have had early numbered men from the Boer War period who served in The Great War and appear in the medal Rolls. Many Yeomanry Regiments were formed for the Boer War. We see these early numbers in some other Yeomanry units ...31 William Hutcheson South Notts Hussars joined on 21st Feb 1900 for example.

One of the problems tracing these records is that the 1/3rd Scottish Horse formed the 26th (Scottish Horse) Sqn MGC an one Company of 1/3rd Scottish Horse with some Lovat Scots formed the 10th (Lovat's Scouts) Bn Cameron Highlanders TF so many men had their numbers changed and consequently their original Scottish Horse numbers are buried in the surviving Service Records and Pension Records.

MG

Edit - I notice that 380 Sgt T Bell 3rd Scottish Horse who died at Gallipoli on 30th Nov (likely during the blizzard) is recorded in the CWGC notes that he served in South Africa which shows at least one confirmed pre-war man with a low number served in 1/3rd Scottish Horse. He was aged 50.

[rolt968]

Thank you very much everyone.

I had been thinking along similar lines myself.

I was fairly sure that he had served in South Africa, particularly as he is not in the 1901 Census.

I had found two sets of bits and pieces which might have been James McGregor in the Boer War. Unfortunately the new search engine in FMP is making it very difficult for me to recheck what I had found before.

To help matters J McG can't be found in the 1911 census either!

He is commemorated on the family gravestone in Edzell cemetery.

R,

Ed. SDGW says he enlisted in Dunkeld. I don't think that really tells us anything.

[rolt968]

Hello Jamg,

Two things:

In which newspaper was you gg uncle's obituary published? I've found a death notice in the Brechin Advertiser which only says to whom he was related but not much more, though there may be another which I have missed.

Could you tell me your gg uncle's Boer War service number? I have found a number of possible bits of records, but none have enough to be sure that it's the right person. (Indeed I have just had to rule out the most likely candidate.

R.

[Wullum13]

Hi all I'm researching a relative who served in the 2nd scottish horse I have found the following information

McGonigill Cpl D 5497 died 30. October 1915 I.A19 in Turkey. Can't seem to find out anymore does anyone with more genoligy experience than me have any links or ideas that will help. And what does the I.A 19 represent???

[Wullum13]

Hi again have been a busy boy seems a break away can work wonders ia19 is the plot no, he was killed at suvla bay and is buried in LALA BABA Cemetary Gallipoli his death is registered only as D.W I take it that means he died of wounds??

[Waddell]

Wullum,

I.A 19 is the grave position within the cemetery. The grave registration report indicates that he died of wounds.

There is some information here regarding the Scottish Horse and I would think that he was with the 1/2nd Scottish Horse whilst at Gallipoli-

http://www.1914-1918.net/scottishhorse.htm

Would suggest you purchase a copy of his Medal Index Card here-

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D3812322

Also have a look to see if his service records still exist on Ancestry and the like.

Would be worth starting a new post about your relative.

Scott

[Guest]

Hi again have been a busy boy seems a break away can work wonders ia19 is the plot no, he was killed at suvla bay and is buried in LALA BABA Cemetary Gallipoli his death is registered only as D.W I take it that means he died of wounds??

The Alphanumeric code simply indicates which row and which plot he is buried in. Here is his headstone. It is a very remote and very beautiful cemetery overlooking the sea and he is in good company with many. other Scottish Horse soldiers. DW does indeed mean Died of Wounds.

Photo was taken in 2009.

[Wullum13]

Thanks for that guys lol I've been searching for photos of his grave site for a while with no luck I'm so grateful for what you guys achieved in so little time thanks so much