Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 31 May , 2014 Posted 31 May , 2014 This is the cross marking the grave of Kanonier (Gunner) JKM Brandt, possibly taken during the early 30s'. How do I find out where this is ? Tom
trajan Posted 1 June , 2014 Posted 1 June , 2014 Try http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche.html Can't do that for you right now as about to leave on a visit Trajan
SiegeGunner Posted 1 June , 2014 Posted 1 June , 2014 The only J Brandt on the VdK database with a date of death of 9.6.16 is this chap .... http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=a736fdb7ab6052d59553afc9a3774196 , who is now at Langemark, but may well have been buried somewhere else originally. He does appear to have an individual grave, which perhaps slightly increases the chances that he is still where he was originally buried and certainly indicates that, if he was relocated from elsewhere, he had a marked individual grave at the previous location. Mick
nigelcave Posted 1 June , 2014 Posted 1 June , 2014 I doubt it: many of the men moved to Langemark and placed in the mass grave are 'known' - hence all the names on the surrounding pillars. I suspect that your man was concentrated in at some stage from some other location. (For example, at Vladslo, there are numerous graves concentrated in from miles away, though in that case they have their names on the plaques set in the ground, which I assume give an approximate [and it must be very approximate] actual location.
AOK4 Posted 1 June , 2014 Posted 1 June , 2014 I doubt it: many of the men moved to Langemark and placed in the mass grave are 'known' - hence all the names on the surrounding pillars. I suspect that your man was concentrated in at some stage from some other location. (For example, at Vladslo, there are numerous graves concentrated in from miles away, though in that case they have their names on the plaques set in the ground, which I assume give an approximate [and it must be very approximate] actual location. That is not correct. The names next to the mass grave were put there only in the 1980's and come from research in the Bavarian archives (so mainly Bavarians there). The names are from men who have died in Flanders but have no known grave any more. Hardly any Prussians, Saxons, Württemberg etc. names there. There is even a new plaque with names from men without a known grave whose family has been asking the Volksbund about information. Brandt had a known grave before and was moved to Langemark around 1956 from one of the cemeteries that was moved to Langemark (Langemark-Keerselare, Moorslede, Passendale, Poelkapelle, Staden, Westrozebeke or Zillebeke). The remains were buried in Langemark (just as Menen or Vladslo) per two in a grave of 35x70 cm (so they are not concentrated exactly under the nowadays stones, which have been put in place from the 1970's on). For more information: my book about Menen Wald has a lot of this general information about German war graves from 1914 until now. Jan
nigelcave Posted 1 June , 2014 Posted 1 June , 2014 I find that rather strange, as - so far as I understand I, so correct me by all means, I was under the impression that the Langemark mass grave was the result of concentrations: it seems strange that so many of them - or at least such a very high proportion of those in that grave - should come from Bavaria. I well remember the mass grave from, what, fifty years or so ago now and it was pretty awful that (a) there were at that time no names; and that ( presumably large numbers of these men had named graves before the concentration (for example the German cemetery beyong Polygon Wood British cemetery. As regards Brandt: fine, happy he has a 'plaque' but these must be hopelessly inaccurate, as it were: given 35 x 70 cm space for two men - in UK speak about 14" x 28", and given the number of names on a single plaque at, eg, Vladslo, I am surprised that the plaques could be particularly accurate markers - unless they dug deep and piled these 'mini coffins' on top of each other.. There is also something different in Langemark in the sense that (IIRC) there are practically no unknowns at Menen (maybe a dozen or so, if that?) despite the vast number buried there and not all that many unknowns in Vladslo either, yet there seem to be a very significant number of unknowns in Langemark, newish pillars with names notwithstanding. Presumably these men were concentrated into Langemark from cemeteries (or were they also from battlefield clearance post war?), so why should Langemark have so many unknowns and not the others? Lots of questions: I should probably read your book.
AOK4 Posted 1 June , 2014 Posted 1 June , 2014 Hello, During the concentration of the German cemeteries in 1955-1957, all unknowns they found (a lot of until then unidentified soldiers could be identified because they found a dog tag or something) were supposed to be reburied in the mass grave in Langemark. They gathered like 25.000 unknown remains there (probably quite a few British soldiers as well that the British couldn't find any more in the 1920's). In order to have something for the families who were looking for their relative without a known grave, they did research in the 1970's and 1980's. Since most of the German military archives were lost by that time, they only searched the Bavarian archives for fallen soldiers in Flanders without a known grave and compiled a list of these and put this list in Langemark. There is also absolutely no guarantee that 1. the names on the tablets are complete (mainly Bavarians) 2. the people in the mass grave are actually on these lists. As I said, they have put up an addendum a few years ago and put names there of soldiers that are believed to be buried in Flanders without a known grave. On this addendum are only names of soldiers for which family members (from anywhere in Germany) had been inquiring to the Volksbund. However: the original graves in Langemark (plot A) were largely left as they were (just a few graves were moved to make room for the mass grave) and the unknowns of the original cemetery of Langemark were not moved to the mass grave. There's a plan in my Menen Wald book that shows how the plaques were put on top of the grave rows. You have to think that by 1955 there weren't much remains left, so they fitted in a small sandbag and could easily be put by two in a grave of 35x70 cm. Jan
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 1 June , 2014 Author Posted 1 June , 2014 ... Brandt had a known grave before and was moved to Langemark around 1956 from one of the cemeteries that was moved to Langemark (Langemark-Keerselare, Moorslede, Passendale, Poelkapelle, Staden, Westrozebeke or Zillebeke). The remains were buried in Langemark (just as Menen or Vladslo) per two in a grave of 35x70 cm (so they are not concentrated exactly under the nowadays stones, which have been put in place from the 1970's on). ... Jan - that's interesting because the photo of Brandt's grave was found amongst papers relating to the installation of German headstones which included some postcards of cemeteries such as Staden, Westroozebeke, Wervicq (Ville), etc, . The photo in post #1 cannot be Langemark because of the houses - have you any idea where it actually was ? Tom
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