Battle of Messines

[Guest Noelkeely007anv]

I have seen two different versions of why so many Irish soldiers are buried at Lone Tree Cemetery after being killed on 6th June 1917. The first version says that the Spanbroekmolen mine exploded fifteen seconds late. The second version says that the soldiers left their trenches earlier than they should have. Can anyone clarify this for me? Thanks.

[nigelcave]

Hopefully (?) they were klled on 7 June 1917.

Maybe they were, maybe they were not killed by the explosion and the resulting debris; it is equally likely that they were killed by means other than that mine: there are not an enormous number in that particular, relatively rather small cemetery in any case.

[stevem49]

Cannot find anything in 'The 16th (Irish) and 36th (Ulster) Divisions at the Battle of Wijtschate - Messines Ridge, 7 June 1917'

Nearly 60 are Irish men but it was one of the cemeteries used during the battle.

Steve M

[Fattyowls]

Noel

There was a post about the Messines mines a while back. I looked up the timings of the individual mine detonations in Ian Passingham's book 'Pillars of Fire' for that and summarised it as follows.

At 3.00 am the barrage stopped. There was relative silence until 3.09.53 when the two southernmost groups at Trench 127 and Trench 122/Factory Farn exploded, four mines in all. There was a gap of 7 seconds and then the remaining fifteen mines in eleven locations went off in 12 seconds. The time lapse from first to last was 19 seconds and a wave like accoustic effect was reported. It was reported that the firing party at the Hill 60/Caterpillar pair of mines 'heard' the rumble from the early detonation to the south as they fired their mine.The barrage from 2,226 guns immediately opened on the frontage from Hill 60 to St Yves covering the German lines to a depth of 700 yards.

It's worth bearing in mind that the mine detonations were not linked and instead relied on the watches of the men firing the mines. I've got a large scale copy of the Messines planning map and this shows the relative widths of no mans land from St Eloi to Factory Farm and I've had a look to see if the lines were particularly close together at Spanbroekmolen. Unfortunately the map is cropped at just the wrong place as the mill was at the end of a pronouced salient. However the lines appear further apart than at Peckham where they are very close. What is noticeable from the map is that the distance up onto the ridge for the troops attacking from in front of Spanbroekmolen is very wide and immediately behind the mill's reserve position is a strongpoint just along the spur around Hop Point. To my untutored eye the area being attacked by the men now buried in Lone Tree looks particularly strong and may account for at least some the casualties. It's also worth bearing in mind that the geology of each of the mines was slightly different; the one at Ontario Farm didn't leave a crater at all. It may be that the Spanbroekmolen one spread debris wider. I haven't got the Passingham book to hand but I can have a look next week as I think it might mention something about this.

Pete.

[Colin W Taylor]

Noel

I'm no expert but I've had a look at the war diaries for the units of the four main battalions with men in the cemetery - 8th, 9th, 12th and 14th Battalions Royal Irish Rifles.

The summary relating to the mines are:

8th Bn - ' Mines exploded and the battalion left the trenches' - no mention of premature mines or injuries from debris.

9th Bn - Glare of the mines going up enabled the waves of men going over the top 'unheeding the falling debris'

12th Bn - The infantry advanced a few seconds after zero - though they were in support.

14th Bn - Due to a 'second explosion' when the battalion were 30 yards into no mans land men were knocked off their feet and had problems facing the right direction leading to confusion. However this would not suggest casualties caused by the effects and only mentions a few casualties caused in no mans land by MG fire.

I would superficially conclude that whether the mines were premature or the infantry advance was premature is not necessarily relevant to who was buried in the cemetery. 8th Bn had 24 men buried in the cemetery but mentioned no losses; the rest; 9th, 12th and 14th; have 11, 9 and 9 respectively.

I would suggest that as the battle was all about simultaneity - everything happening at once in terms of mines, artillery and troops advancing - watches for some battalions could also have led to time variations in advances placing troops in greater danger. As Pete suggests geology played a part the hazards of debris for some mines was less than others. I'm not sure if the dangers of debris were taken into account in the timings. However the risks of minor casualties from debris probably outweighed the rewards of achieving a swift attack following on from such destruction.

There is an account by Lt Witherow of 8th R Ir Rif (in Lynn MacDonald's 'They Called it Passchendaele') - (the furthest of these four battalions from the Spanbroekmolen crater) who described one of his men killed by a brick in the debris when the mine went up as they neared the German trenches. He adds however; 'A few more seconds and we would have gone up with the mine'. If this latter statement is correct is he referring to the Spanbroekmolen Mine? Was it one of the Kruisstraat Craters?

That's my take based on the above four documents and MacDonald's book. I've not read as much as I'd like on this battle in recent years.

Kind regards

Colin

[sotonmate]

There are also some RIRifles from the same Battalions,and more, in Spanbroekmolen Cemetery

[Colin W Taylor]

Sotonmate

I presume that those buried at Spanbroekmolen Cemetery were casualties in the German front line trenches or beyond. Certainly Lynn MacDonald suggested, in line with Noel's statement, that the casualties from debris were caused buried in Lone Tree Cemetery.

A tunnelling report, contrary to Passingham, stated that it wasn't the Spanbroekmolen Mine being late but the Peckham Farm mine which was fired 20 seconds earlier than Spanbroekmolen going at about 3:09:30. Spanbroekmolen went 20 seconds later and two seconds later Kruisstraat went. This would account for the 8th R Ir Rif quote above who must have consequently presumed that the Peckham Farm mine was on time and signalled the attack. They subsequently lost men from the other two mines which were nearer to being on time.

However the above report stated that the author found a 7-8 second discrepancy between the watches of the local tunnelling company commander the GSO1 of 36th Division and the CRA of 36th Division which can't have helped matters. This was not able to be accurately addressed in the remaining few hours. At the time there were concerns about synchronization of watches and some were critical of the measures in place.

Kind regards

Colin

[Fattyowls]

A tunnelling report, contrary to Passingham, stated that it wasn't the Spanbroekmolen Mine being late but the Peckham Farm mine which was fired 20 seconds earlier than Spanbroekmolen going at about 3:09:30. Spanbroekmolen went 20 seconds later and two seconds later Kruisstraat went. This would account for the 8th R Ir Rif quote above who must have consequently presumed that the Peckham Farm mine was on time and signalled the attack. They subsequently lost men from the other two mines which were nearer to being on time.

However the above report stated that the author found a 7-8 second discrepancy between the watches of the local tunnelling company commander the GSO1 of 36th Division and the CRA of 36th Division which can't have helped matters. This was not able to be accurately addressed in the remaining few hours. At the time there were concerns about synchronization of watches and some were critical of the measures in place.

Colin, this is really interesting (I know, I need to get a life but you know what I'm like about the Messines mines). Did the tunnelling report say where the observers where and how they took the timings? Quite apart from the watch syncronisation issue there are so many physical variables involved which I find intriguing. I assume they were flash spotting but if you were peering over a trench parapet into the dark I'm wondering how they could tell which was which? I'll try and get hold of the Passingham book again to recheck his sources.

Pete.

Pete.