A lot to ask but you never know!

[Piff60]

Firstly, apologies for the rather long posting but some of my research may be of use to others as well as helping to pin point my grandfathers exploits!

Thanks to the very knowledgeable people on this forum, I have been able to research some of the actions of my Grandfather during his time in the Great War. However, I have been unable to find out the exact whereabouts of his regiment at the various battles and wondered if anyone can help.

I have managed to find out through the help of people on this forum and my own investigations the following:

• He enlisted on the 3rd June 1912
• He was Private No 1104 in the 1/22 London Regiment and later 1/43962 in the RIR. They were separate battalions and regiments.
• His name was Charles Edward Pitham, but records also show him as Chas Edward Pitman, Edward Charles Pitham!

1/22nd (County of London) Battalion

• 16 March 1915 : landed at Le Havre.
• 11 May 1915 : formation became 142nd Brigade in 47th (2nd London) Division.?

It has been suggested that he may have served in several phases. My initial questions is "where would he have initially fought and where and what would he have been involved in along with the rest of his comrades?"

I suspect that I may be asking too much on the later part!?

It has been suggested that he would have fought at Aubers, Festubert and Loo's before his luck ran out on the Somme somewhere, he was severely wounded and discharged with wounds and as he lost a lung and was given the last rights as I understand, would have had to have some time to recover? (A right hell of a fight with them all!)

At some point he would have been transferred to a battalion in the RIR.?

I mentioned that he may have served in phases with the initial phase being the battles mentioned above?

There are service records for 43965 William Edward Price.- His records show that he had previously served in the 22nd Battalion of the London Regiment in the UK and embarked to France via Southampton and La Havre on 29th September 1916. after my grandfather. On arrival in France at the Base Depot 43965 William Edward Price was held there for a while (as would have been the whole group he was with) and then attached to the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles on 29th October 1916. He was officially transferred to the Royal Irish Rifles and allotted his new number 43965 on 26th December 1916.

It is likely that the "2nd Phase" of my grandfather Charles Pitham's service was with this group of men. 43961 Frank Brittain/Brittan Platt also followed the exact same change of battalions/Regiments and numbers, though he landed on 7th October 1916 rather than 29th September 1916, but was also previously in the 22nd Battalion of the London Regiment.

I am looking to follow the battles where my grandfather fought and if possible to know where he actually was, as my wife and I are visiting on the 31st May for a short fact finding tour before arranging a 2 week stint!!

On a separate note, any recommendations for short tours for the battles above?

Many thanks in anticipation.

Peter

[johnboy]

If you go to Long Long Trail, top left of page and look up 142nd Brigade in 47th (2nd London) Division it will show the regiments and battalions in the Division and dates of battles.

[anthony P]

Hi Peter

Charles Edward Pitham. Numbers 1104, 1/43962, 1st/22nd London R, Royal Irish Rifles.

You need to ask for the War Diaries of Royal Irish Rifles. Information from MIC, no Service records available, or Pension Records.

Good Luck

Tony

[Piff60]

Hi

Many thanks for the information. Can I ask if any one has copies of the war diaries for RIR on this forum, or should I be looking elsewhere? Is there such a thing as battle maps for the various battles that my Grandfather fought in and would trench maps be the same? I would love to visit the actual area and trenches that he actually fought at!

He was badly injured at one of the battles, and as he was so bad I suspect that it would have been one of the battles in the middle to late 1917 as he was discharged on the 13/12/17 following some medical care I would have thought. Is there any way that I can find out at which battle he was injured?

Many thanks for your help and wishes of good luck!!

Peter

[Guest]

Jut type in ROYAL IRISH REGIMENT, (in capitals) in the search box Click

Mike

[Ron Clifton]

Jut type in ROYAL IRISH REGIMENT, (in capitals) in the search box Click

Mike

Careful! Earlier posts suggest Royal Irish Rifles, rather than the different Royal Irish Regiment.

Ron

[Guest]

Careful! Earlier posts suggest Royal Irish Rifles, rather than the different Royal Irish Regiment.

Ron

Oops! Sorry. I will compensate if caused you to buy wrong diary.

Mike

[Piff60]

Thanks for your post. I did try this a while ago but all I could find was the abbreviation for RIR!! However, I did find a bargain of a diary

Peter

[Piff60]

Contacted national archives and they have the diaries and maps!!

It's not digitised so someone has to copy. Initial estimate £500! but of someone has to copy the lot its understandable.

Going up to have a look through and going to try to copy the relevant bits myself.

In France at the moment and have just spent a wonderful reflective day going around the memorials and Graves at Festubert, Aubers. Neuve Chapelle, and the Australian Memorial. One thing that this fact finding tour has taught me is that you need a guide to get the most out of it as some of the time, i thought i was in peoples back gardens! Messines tomorrow and then a "mop up2 on Monday.

We found my wife's Uncles grave at Etaples (must check the indexing!) and from the description in the cemetery book it confirms my thought that he must have been injured and then died some days later from his wounds.

Looking forward to coming back to see it with a good guide so if anyone has any ideas of a good guide I would be grateful to know.

Peter

[John_Hartley]

It's not digitised so someone has to copy. Initial estimate £500! but of someone has to copy the lot its understandable.

Going up to have a look through and going to try to copy the relevant bits myself.

Peter

If you're going to Kew, it's an easy process to digi-photo a full war diary. Should be easily done in a day, taking breaks.

If not, then Ann Swabey will do it for you at what I understand are very reasonable prices - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117715

[nigelcave]

In some ways you are doing it the best way, I think, for the first time - stumbling around. Next time that you go, maybe a guide would be a good idea, or you can do a lot of your own research, which can make things that much more pleasurable and perhaps give you a greater feeling of personal involvement in the trip - all that research will be seen to have 'concrete' results.

[Piff60]

hi,

Thanks for your replies......... good to hear that I can do it at Kew!. I suspect that will be the route I will take as I am sure that my wife, who has taken a real interest in it all, will be sure to help me.

i have really enjoyed researching but often find a blind alley and then i revert to the forum!!

I am researching the different associations that a division, brigade, unit etc represent as it is clear that nothing stood still during WW!......... it would appear that there are a number of different divisions from that of my Grandfather (1/22nd RIR) as today i saw graves for the RIR, London Irish Rifles, etc!

many thanks for your help

Peter

[kenf48]

It appears he went overseas with the main body of the 1/22 London Regiment, he would have gone to the base depot initially and from there to the front with the 47th Division. During May 1915 the Bn lost 27 casualties most were at Festubert (15-25 May ) where the Division's exploits on the 24th and 25th were mentioned in paragraph 5 of Sir John French's Despatch. http://www.1914-1918.net/french_eighth_despatch.html

In all the Division suffered over 2000 casualties during the battle.

Looking at the casualties I don't think the Battalion was heavily engaged at Aubers, or at least no dead are recorded.

The next major action was at Loos where the Division was on the extreme right of the British Army Once again they come in for praise from the C in C (para10;11 and 15 Ninth despatch)

http://www.1914-1918.net/french_ninth_despatch.html

On the 21st May 1916 the Division was holding trenches at Vimy Ridge when the enemy attacked but made no significant tactical or strategic advance. Although there were 65 casualties there were none from the 1/22nd.

The Division moved to the Somme and their next major action was at Flers-Courcelette on the 15th September when the Division captured High Wood. As your research show replacements arriving at the Base Depot from the end of September, who were transferred to the RIR it seems unlikely he was involved in this action. Although he could have been a victim of the daily attrition it seems most likely he was first wounded at Loos in late 1915 invalided home and on recovery was sent out to France again in late 1916 and posted to the Royal Irish Rifles from the IBD. The prefix 1/suggests the 1st Bn.

The war diary if the 1st RIR has been digitised and is available for £3.30 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7352501

A few war diaries have lists of casualties for O.Rs but don't get your hopes up

There are a couple of casualties 4396** on 31st July which was the beginning of 3rd Ypres, which fits your timeline but the Battalion seems to have suffered steady losses throughout the year.

As for the diary of the 1/22 if you're patient it should be digitised this year!

Ken

[Piff60]

Hi Ken

WOW!, Thank you so very much. I can't believe the time and trouble that you have taken researching this. It is very much appreciated. It has been suggested before that he may have been wounded and returned to the front in the RIR? However, I can't seem to find any information to confirm whether he was or want' or returned home. I seem to be going up Avenues the do not bare any confirmed details relating to my grandfather, and so the diaries seem a must!

What we do know is that he was near fatally wounded and discharged/returned home on 13/12/1917. He lost a lung and as I remember as a kid had terrible scarring around his shoulder and chest.

As bad luck would have it he then got lung cancer in his other lung which he fought and won!

He must have seen some awful sights as he never spoke about the war at any stage. I am really keen to know where he fought and to revisit those battle fields, and to pay respects to his comrades that were not quite so lucky.

I initially thought that he had been at Messines and was visiting the many RIR graves today. I will be down loading the ink to the diaries you have suggested eagerly paying my £3.30!

Again, many thanks for all your time, trouble and effort in bringing the facts to me

Best wishes

Peter

[kenf48]

In the absence of a service record or other event such as marriage or birth it can only be informed speculation that he was wounded, sent back to the UK to recover and then when he returned to France expecting to go back to his Battalion he was posted elsewhere from the IBD. The IBDs were a 'melting pot' and one of the reasons they were disliked so much was that until later in the war returning soldiers were treated like new recruits which caused much resentment.

However there are other reasons why he may have been at the IBD, there are documented examples of men returning from leave and being posted elsewhere, this seems unlikely as his original Battalion was in action around this time and the most likely reason was that he was there as a result of injury, or illness. I have a great uncle who was killed at Etaples in 1918 and I always assumed he was wounded yet the recently digitised war diary finally solved the mystery in that a week before it shows a couple of officers and 150 ORs 'not required for training (the Americans) went to Etaples'.

When you say discharged/returned home 13/12/1917 which do you mean? With such a serious injury he would have been treated in the UK prior to discharge, even if the surgery was at the Base Hospital in France and while they received the best care then available it was primitive compared to today's standards. Incidentally when I said he may have been wounded at Loos while the official dates for the battle were 25 September 1915 to 14 October fighting went on through the winter and the Division was there until January 1916.

There is a history of the 47th (London) Division available for free https://archive.org/details/47thlondondivisi00maudrich which might keep you going until you get to Kew. While these original histories are great they are very much of their time, this one was published in 1922.

Hope the RIR war diary proves useful, be careful about Messines the 1st Bn was in the 8th Division until February 1918 and as it seems a fair assumption that's where he went he was definitely not at Messines although many Battalions of the RIR were (36th (Ulster) Division and 16th (Irish) Division) if he was invalided out in 1917 then he remained with the 8th Division while serving with the Rifles.

Ken

[auchonvillerssomme]

Heres his Silver War Badge Information.