Nurses in Ireland - Help Please

[markg1]

Please can any of the experts help identify these nurses. The photo was recently found in Londonderry/Derry. The caption states "Nursing Corps" "Irish Volunteers". However, this may be inaccurate and added later in error. Do the uniforms give any clues as to date or nature of the service? Are they "civilian" or linked to military or paramilitary forces (e.g. Irish Volunteers, the National Volunteers or Ulster Volunteer Force? Any help gratefully received.

Thanks

Mark

[kjharris]

Hi Mark,

Look like VADs to me - but not an expert on the Irish - one will be along shortly I expect!

cheers

Kirsty

[markg1]

Thank you Kirsty.

Are there any other opinions out there?

Thanks

Mark

[Sue Light]

I'd say it was the Irish equivalent of a female Voluntary Aid Detachment at some very large gathering - there might have been a number of other detachments there. I would date it either pre-war (1910-1914) or during the first year of the war. My feeling is that the writing is in keeping with the date of the photo, or fairly near to the event - the name of the photographer would probably have been forgotten later on.

Sue

[markg1]

Kirsty/Sue

Thanks very much. As you may be aware, the phrase "Irish Volunteers" had and still has particular political connotations in Ireland. It seems likely then that these women are "Irish", and are "Volunteers" in the sense of being VADs. Rather than being part of the Irish political organisation, the "Irish Volunteers".

Mark

[Sue Light]

Mark

I don't think their uniforms give any clue to political persuasion. They look a fairly ordinary group of VADs of the period, except that the women dressed in outdoor uniform and hats in the back row are in different uniform to that usually associated with the British Red Cross Society - the latter would be a dark blue and look black in a photo. So it's entirely possible that 'Irish Volunteers' could fit either scenario. There would need to be some careful comparisons with other photos to be sure.

Sue

[jdoyle]

the photographer :

1911 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_Urban/Bishop_Street/599483/

1901 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/South_Ward_No__2_Urban/Millar_Street/1528608/

[markg1]

Thanks for all the responses

[rob elliott]

Mark,

I would say it's Irish National Volunteers, sometime in 1914 around the outbreak of the war. With Duffy being the photographer it won't be UVF. If it's in the City it could be the Brandwell or more likely Celtic Park where they held parades.

Might be the clock tower of the Guildhall to the far rear left with the city on the hill as it is today.

Interesting that Duffy, or whoever wrote it has put Londonderry rather than Derry if it is Nationalist but not as unusual than people may think.

Where the photo came from may be a clue. Was it a private source or a purchase. Nice photo though. Have a friend who collects Derry items like this. I'll see what he thinks.

[markg1]

Rob

Thank you for the comments.

I had wondered whether these could be VADs linked to pre-Woodenbridge Irish Volunteers or Redmond's National Volunteers post-split. But if it were the INV would it not say that rather than Irish Volunteers?

What is it that precludes Duffy being used by the UVF? Is it his Roman Catholicism?

I don't know the provenance of the photo. It was posted on a Facebook page relating to the Volunteers (1910-1923). I can ask though.

Mark

[jdoyle]

my guess is that this is a photo of members of the Nursing Corps put together by Mina Lenox-Conyngham in Derry/Londonderry.

[rob elliott]

Mark,

I think whoever wrote 'irish volunteers' didn't write the E.J.Duffy & Londonderry. This has probably been added later by who ever owned the photograph.

The reference Irish Volunteers would have been used up until the split. I'm pretty sure it's Irish Volunteer Nursing Corps. Derry City had a reasonably large IV contingent, not as large as local histories make out but certainly up to a couple of thousand men and they tended to copy the UVF.

There is nothing to suggest it's the South Londonderry UVF Nurses and I wonder why JDoyle you think it could possibly be. Derry City UVF had a large Nursing Corps of its own as did Donegal UVF, so why would a Catholic photographer go down to South Londonderry to photograph the UVF? But this is not Derry City UVF.

Unless the photo has been reversed the armbands are also on the wrong arm and there are different style/sizes. Perhaps civilian nurses attending as a 'nursing corps' section.

Regarding Duffy not photographing the UVF because he's a catholic, that would partly be true but also because he would go where he could get business. Most photographers did not stray too far from home turf in those days and the various organisations about at the time gave a nice little bonus from the normal business. If Duffy could tie up the IV 'contract' as official photographer he could do well. He would already be known from his ordinary work so getting an introduction via Nationalist officers would be quite easy. He would not have the same contacts for the UVF but would be known in the City by Unionists, as it is a very small City even today.

One other thing that is quite obvious. Anyone who owned the photo and thought it UVF would write 'Ulster Volunteers' not 'Irish', unless of course it has been deliberately misnamed.

The guys on the right behind the last nurses appear to have bandoliers on. Does the original show it clearer?

Rob

[markg1]

Rob/JDoyle

Thanks for the further opinions. I had wondered about the position of the armbands, but hadn't spotted the bandoliers. I don't have the original. The photo was posted on

https://www.facebook.com/groups/irishvolunteers/

Mark

[rob elliott]

Mark,

Unfortunately [fortunately] not on facebook so can't open link. But I had a look at Celtic Park photos in Londonderry. This is situated next to Brandywell football ground in Londonderry. The angle of the view to the City up on the hill is similar. The Irish Volunteers used this for their large parades. Depending on which facebook site it came off, it probably originates from someone with a connection to it. But as you know this could have been forwarded on and on through various sites.

There was a facebook site Londonderry 400th which had lots of photos of the old city including a couple of Irish Volunteer ones. But I can't seem to find the site now. You could view the pics without being a member of FB.

Rob

[markg1]

Rob

I'll make those suggestions. The original poster, Seamus Breslin, is going to see if he can get more information about the origin of the photo.

Thanks for all your help.

Mark

[KGB]

If it has "London" Derry on it, it sure as hell ain't "Irish Volunteers" from the south.

[rob elliott]

KGB,

Why's that? Using that logic the 'Derry City' UVF Regiments wouldn't have existed, nor the Apprentice Boys of Derry, the 10th Service Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers [Derry Volunteers] or even the City of Derry Special Constabulary, the 'B' Specials. All of the Londonderry City Unionist/Loyalist organisations used the term 'Derry' at that time, including the Orange Order.

I have paperwork relating to an IRA man writing about pensions in the 30's and he gave the address as 'Londonderry'.

I think it was in the 1950's, a guy from the loyalist Fountain estate in the City was well known for making hand carved walking sticks. He did one and sent it to De Valera, who wrote back thanking him, putting his address as...Londonderry. family still have letter.

The Irish Volunteers were founded by a man from the North if i'm not mistaken.

Rob

[jdoyle]

couple of reasons why I suggest it's a Mina Lenox-Conyngham group :

1. she outfitted a number of units in the area and this group looks fairly well outfitted

2. Nursing Corps is a term that tends to crop up in respect of UVF related units (but the writing does appear to be a later addition so might be a red herring)

3. I can't think of any driving force in the Derry area keen to set up a nursing unit for the IV unlike Dublin which had Kathleen Lynn etc (though she was ICA rather than Cumann na mBan)

4. the IV were a men only outfit with women in the Cumann na mBan

5. she owned property where there were a number of UVF parades were held; her husband being CO of 2nd Battn South Londonderry

6. the nurse standing on the left has a bit of a look of her

Re Duffy being a Catholic at a Unionist event,I think it's possibly a case of you go where the money/opportunity is. Press man (John) Gordon Lewis is seen in a number of photos taking images of republican leaders yet was a Signatory of the Ulster Covenant and had attempted to serve in the British Army, volunteering in 1914.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6694595497/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6700721941/

So far in my looking at Dublin men who signed the Ulster Covenant I have found 2 who were were Roman Catholic.

[KGB]

KGB,

Why's that? Using that logic the 'Derry City' UVF Regiments wouldn't have existed, nor the Apprentice Boys of Derry, the 10th Service Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers [Derry Volunteers] or even the City of Derry Special Constabulary, the 'B' Specials. All of the Londonderry City Unionist/Loyalist organisations used the term 'Derry' at that time, including the Orange Order.

I have paperwork relating to an IRA man writing about pensions in the 30's and he gave the address as 'Londonderry'.

I think it was in the 1950's, a guy from the loyalist Fountain estate in the City was well known for making hand carved walking sticks. He did one and sent it to De Valera, who wrote back thanking him, putting his address as...Londonderry. family still have letter.

The Irish Volunteers were founded by a man from the North if i'm not mistaken.

Rob

I stand corrected!

[rob elliott]

JDoyle,

If it's Londonderry City it's definitely not Lenox-Conyngham. There was no inter action at all between the City and the South Londonderry UVF. In fact, somewhat oddly, there was no interaction between North & South Londonderry UVF Regiments but quite a bit between City and North Londonderry.

The biggest parade held by the Londonderry City & North County UVF was in April 1914 at Limavady for a visit by Carson to open the new drill hall. 4000 on parade. He did this in the afternoon. In the morning he had been to Garvagh to review the South Londonderry UVF with Lenox-Conyngham.

The South Londonderry UVF were not asked to attend the afternoon parade and in all my paperwork there is not a single instance of North & South Londonderry having any joint action. In fact I can't recall a single reference to the South Regiment in any paperwork and only one mention of Lennox Conyngham when the regiments were being formed in a private letter. It has to be appreciated how far south Londonderry is away from the City.

Even the run to Larne to collect their portion of the rifles on april 24th comprised Donegal, Derry City & North Londonderry men driving together, setting off from Limavady. South Londonderry were left out of the joint operation.

The UVF were a men only organisation too, but they still had women nurses and women signallers. I see no reason why the IVs would not be able to form a small nursing contingent from all the Catholic nurses that worked in the City.

Very little is known about the Derry IVs. Their structure wasn't too good, being led by 'Corporal' McGlinchey ex-Inniskillings who fashioned himself a general. Unlike the City UVF Officers who were low key he would walk around with a sword. It wasn't until Jack White came that any sort of serious structure got underway and he was ousted. If you read the local Nationalist paper, the Journal, they had 'Divisions' in most districts and Battalions out of single streets. This of course is the way Nationalist/Republican arithmetic worked 1=100. The three City UVF battalions comprised 3600 men. Larger than three Army Battalions, no need to exaggerate.

Gordon Lewis was a commercial press photographer. Duffy was a commercial 'private' photographer. The local papers in Derry did not use photographs at this time so there were not really any 'commercial' photographers in the City.

The Unionist 'private' ones were 'Harries' and 'Glass'. With Cooper at strabane doing the largest collection of photos PRONI have.

One other thing. The press were banned from reporting Derry City UVF parades so unlikely a photo like this would have been allowed.

The Dublin men who signed the Covenant, I take it they were Ulster born? Otherwise they should not have signed the Covenant. Although as we know Dubliner Edward Carson did & I do have lots of Southern men in the UVF for which, in theory, you should have signed the Covenant.

The signing of the Covenant and membership of the UVF were open to all classes and creeds. I have found 1 Derry City UVF man who was a born Catholic & there were the 3 brothers in the Antrim UVF.

KGB, I don't think the name really became a major issue until after 1969. It was around this time the City Grand Lodge changed their name to Londonderry.

Rob

[markg1]

Thanks again. This witness statement of Liam Brady http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0676.pdf makes reference to an Edward J Duffy in relation to first aid books and bandages (pages 20 and 21). According to Brady Duffy was the first IV arrested. There's also reference to a large IV Summer Camp at Ludden.

[jdoyle]

Edward Duffy appears in the Rebellion Handbook as being deported to Wakefield on the 13th May in a batch of 273 prisoners. His address is given as Foyle St, Derry and he is listed as a book keeper. Duffy appears on the 2nd June 1916 list of prisoners for release on the 8th June 1916.

Brady's statement make it sound like they weren't very prepared in 1916 re First Aid.

[rob elliott]

Mark,

I have a few of the Witness Statements for Londonderry. So it does look like Duffy was involved in the IV's, so it may well have been him organising the Nursing Corps for them in 1914, hence the photo.

I have to say mr Brady did have a bit of a chip on his shoulder. His selective history of Londonderry is excellent and i'm sure confirms all the thoughts of modern republican thinking. The English came 800 years ago, err no they wereFrench Normans and had invaded England too, but never let a fact get in the way. Then everyone is misguided, the UVF for following Carson, the Irish Volunteers for following Redmond, but the 30 or so guys he admits to attending their meeting during the war know best. Still that ensured they had at least a 'Brigade' in Derry.

Some of his information contradicts what is known and other Witness Statements. McGandy the postman, found dead in the river. he says it was British soldiers killed him, another statement said the revived UVF [it was 1920].

Newspapers say he left his post bag and jacket on the side of the quay. Odd thing to do in a fight as described. I think it was UVF, stopped & searched him, found papers and things in his bag then threw him in river.

No grenade cases in his bag, they took them. Craig's foundry was used by the UVF in 1914 for training.

Guy reviewing one of the new books in History Ireland this month says similar thing about using these records.

Good you found the Duffy mention though.

Rob

[rob elliott]

No the breakaway volunteers wouldn't have been prepared, but the original Volunteers may have been. he makes reference to St John's ambulance, was it their nursing corps in the photo?

[markg1]

Edward J Duffy was a 35 year old bookkeeper in the 1901 census. In 1911, he's a 47 year old photographer. So that could fit with the reference in the SF Rebellion Handbook.

I found Brady's statement to be overly melodramatic and, as you say, he comes with a very large chip weighing him down. But the reference to something, in the context, as relatively mundane as first aid is a bit more compelling.

I wonder if Sue Light has a view on the potential St John's ambulance link. I think VADs were Red Cross?