gordon92 Posted 20 May , 2014 Posted 20 May , 2014 I am stumped by this one. Who are they? By the absence of visible overstripes on the kilts, they are not 6th HLI, Seaforth, or Liverpool Scottish. Since there is a tartan pattern, they are not London Scottish. Even though blurred, the silhouettes of the cap badges are inconsistent with Gordons, 9th HLI, Camerons, or Argylls. There are no garter flashes visible that would help. There is some possibility they are 9th Royal Scots. Also possible is the 7th (Fife) Bn Black Watch and the 6th (Perthshire) Bn Black Watch. I believe these two Bns retained their Volunteer cap badges into the TF era. But did they wear red hackles on the TOS or cap badges? Is this possibly a Canadian unit? Would appreciate your thoughts.
Guest Posted 20 May , 2014 Posted 20 May , 2014 My first thought was Cameron Highlanders, but possibly Black Watch? Mike
4thGordons Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 Really tough one - Cameron Highlanders looks a reasonable bet -- I am pretty sure its NOT Black Watch as their badges always show as more angular, same with the Royal Scots but given the size of the badge it remains possible. Even with the Cameron Highlanders the cut-outs in the badge are usually visible. Three of the seated men appear to be wearing shorts (presumably this is related to the football) I wonder about a Canadian Scottish unit - but I am largely ignorant of their badges so can't help much. Interesting one. Chris
Steven Broomfield Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 None are wearing battle patches or collar dogs, so I'd guess Canadian is less likely (but not impossible).
Blackblue Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 The shoulder titles seem very short. RH perhaps? Does the man left front have a solid curved title similar to Canadian? Rgds Tim D
o j kirby Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 Hello, How about 8th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders? The soldiers look as though they are wearing the collar badge of the Argylls on their head dress. I have seen a nunber of photos of men of that battalion with this distinction. Owain.
Guest Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 not convinced about the A & SH, there cap badge is one of the biggest, I think. Click Mike
bill24chev Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 not convinced about the A & SH, there cap badge is one of the biggest, I think. Click Mike Yes but if a collar badge, as Owain suggests, would be much smaller. bill
gordon92 Posted 21 May , 2014 Author Posted 21 May , 2014 Hello, How about 8th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders? The soldiers look as though they are wearing the collar badge of the Argylls on their head dress. I have seen a nunber of photos of men of that battalion with this distinction. Owain. Thanks to all for their thoughts on this. The views of the cap badges seem to display a double lobe consistent with the collar badge of the A&SH. Shoulder titles seem to fit this hypothesis. So, this is the most promising lead so far IMO.
gordon92 Posted 21 May , 2014 Author Posted 21 May , 2014 Really tough one - Cameron Highlanders looks a reasonable bet -- I am pretty sure its NOT Black Watch as their badges always show as more angular, same with the Royal Scots but given the size of the badge it remains possible. Even with the Cameron Highlanders the cut-outs in the badge are usually visible. Three of the seated men appear to be wearing shorts (presumably this is related to the football) I wonder about a Canadian Scottish unit - but I am largely ignorant of their badges so can't help much. Interesting one. Chris Chris, The 7th Black Watch did not wear the regular star badge; rather, they retained the old Volunteer badge that was highly circular in silhouette containing the knight on horseback in the center. I think the same is true with the 6th BW, and their badge is overall circular but with the irregularity of the double-headed eagle at the top. But did these two battalions wear the red hackle in the TOS instead of the cap badge? Mike
Guest Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 A very very long shot: Scottish Company, City of London Volunteer Regiment. Cap badge was a very square Star of the Order of the Thistle with the Arms of the city of London superimposed (KK 1646). No idea if the Volunteer Force wore uniforms towards the end (July 1918) but there were many changes and the last change allowed regimental cap-badges. Just a thought. MG PS. An earlier thought was the Cape-Town highlanders (small square badge) but I think they had an over-stripe and served in Africa only.
Steven Broomfield Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 Moving on from Martin's thoughts: woyuld 4th SA Infantry (SA Scottish) work? The circular "Union is Strength/Eendrak Macht Maag (sp?)" badge might fit. Not sure about how the tratn (Atholl?) would show up.
Guest GordonsBydand Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 I'm pretty certain the South Africans would have their collar dogs on as well, plus a very tall 4/SA shoulder title. I think your answer is going to be either along the lines or a Canadian Militia Battalion, (Though most of those had a background of a maple leaf on the cap badges), or far more likely is a TA battalion of one of the regular highland regiments.
Guest Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 TF (not TA) shoulder titles would show the T and the number... Picture is blurred but it only looks like a curved shoulder title to me .. and a long one which might eliminate HLI. Closeup might help. On South Africans: Transvaal Scottish badge might fit but has large voided centre around a thistle. General shape is square Order of the Thistle. Scottish Company D of E ; Own Rifle Vols had a small Order of the thistle with a ducal crown above...so we can probably eliminate them on two counts (Rifles and badge) Kimberley Regt. Order of Thistle with diamond in the middle. Diamond is quite proud of the badge. They were Rifles up to 1899 so not sure if kilted. South African Scottish was a circlet with an antelope within. I don't see any Canadian badge fitting Source: Scottish Regimental Badges 1793-1971 Including Commonwealth Forces - An Illustrated Reference Guide for Collectors by WH and KD Bloomer.
4thGordons Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 Ok how about approaching this slightly differently.WHEN was the picture taken. My guess would be quite late war. All the men have standard 1907 Service Dress Jackets and on where it is visible with the front skirts tailored for kit wear. This was done at the unit level and (officially) was supposed to stop during the war (it clearly did not). The man seated second from left (in the kilt not shorts) appears to have a wound stripe so the photo must be taken after AO 204 of 6 July 1916 authorizing these. So Mid 1916 on, yet no formation signs (division/battalion etc) are visible, shoulder titles are not present on all men and where they are, (left seated, third from left seated) they appear small and straight (so not Gordon/Seaforth). Perhaps A&SH consistent with the suggestion above. I have not seen photos of the A&SH collar badge worn as a cap badge so would like to for comparative purposes. I would have guessed where that did happen it was in Service battalions early on so I think that would struggle to fit with the suggested period unless it is a second or third line battalion? The ball would appear to indicate some sports connection yet only 9 men are present (one would expect 11/12 if a football team) - so perhaps (as there is a Sgt and two L/cpls) they are sports instructors (no insignia to indicate) in a second line battalion. Chris
Guest Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 Is the football relevant? Didn't one Scottish Kitchener battalion start from six players from the Heart of Midlothian joining up?
4thGordons Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 AgreeG! A close up of the title would be good. Where you see curved I see straight!
4thGordons Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 Is the football relevant? Didn't one Scottish Kitchener battalion start from six players from the Hert of Midlothian joining up? 16th Royal Scots? "Macrae's battalion" I think
Guest Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 On 22/05/2014 at 01:00, 4thGordons said: Agree! A close up of the title would be good. Where you see curved I see straight! Curved or straight...but no "T"
Joe Sweeney Posted 21 May , 2014 Posted 21 May , 2014 This is a real tough one--not even garter flashes!!!! A close-up of the Tam with badge might help. Joe Sweeney
gordon92 Posted 21 May , 2014 Author Posted 21 May , 2014 The Cape Town Highlanders contingent of 4th SA Infantry (South African Scottish) wore kilts of Gordon tartan. The yellow lines would not appear in the photography, so this is a possibility uniform wise. However, they only served in SW Africa as Martin G has said. Transvaal Scottish contingent of 4th SA Infantry wore Murray of Atholl tartan (per Steven Broomfield) which had red overstripes that would appear as in original photo; but, again, this unit only served in German SW Africa. This is the best I can do with the cap badge on the TOS; it does look like the A&SH collar badge to me. Could not do much with a zoom on the shoulder title except to strongly indicate that the title is straight with no T. Suggests Service Bn or possibly regulars (unlikely). Good spot by Chris on the wound stripe indicating mid-1916 onward. One more point: Just measured an A&SH OR collar badge, and it is 2 inches in width and 1 inch in height. Does seem consistent with what is seen on the Tam in the photo.
Steven Broomfield Posted 22 May , 2014 Posted 22 May , 2014 Transvaal Scottish contingent of 4th SA Infantry wore Murray of Atholl tartan (per Steven Broomfield) which had red overstripes that would appear as in original photo; but, again, this unit only served in German SW Africa. The 4th SAI served on the Western Front, but I am unsure what tartan they wore ... I thought it was Atholl, but I might be wrong. It's irrelevant to this now, of course, but just thought I'd mention it.
o j kirby Posted 22 May , 2014 Posted 22 May , 2014 Hello again, I still think we are talking 8th Argylls, with the collar badge worn on the TOS. I have two photos in my collection showing the same badge, one wasa soldier KIA in 1916 at Beaumont Hamel, and the other photo includes the four vertical battalion stripes on the upper sleeve indicating 8th battalion, 152 brigade, 51st Highland division. Can it be fair to say that the badge resembles an "8" on its side? Unfortunately, I have not got the facility to scan them right now. I have also seen the same badge in photos in the archive at Stirling castle. Cheers, Owain
gordon92 Posted 22 May , 2014 Author Posted 22 May , 2014 The 4th SAI served on the Western Front, but I am unsure what tartan they wore ... I thought it was Atholl, but I might be wrong. It's irrelevant to this now, of course, but just thought I'd mention it. Indeed, I stand corrected Steven. The 4th SAI did serve in France.
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