Relocated burials

[Ali Hollington]

Hi,

A relative of mine is buried in Messine Ridge cemty, which I believe was formed as a concertration cemty, if this is correct is there any way to find where he was originally laid to rest.

Ali

PS His details below.

[Aurel Sercu]

Ali,

This does not give an answer to your question, but it might help.

Remains of soldiers of 9 cemeteries in the area were concentrated in Messines Ridge British Cem. (If you want the names and locations, let me know).

Is the man you are referring to Bdr. Thomas Dunsford (7/6/17), or Pte F. Pike (no date of death mentioned) ?

If Thomas Dunsford it may have been :

- Bell Farm Cemetery, Wijtschate (contained 32 British men of 25th Division fallen June 17 (sorry, haven't had time yet to find out in which T. Dunsford was)

- Lumm Farm Cemetery, Wijtschate : contained 13 British graves of men fallen June-Sep 1917

- Onraet Farm Cemetery : contained 29 British men of the 36th (Ulster) division fallen June-Aug 1917

- Queensland Cemetery, Warneton : contained 3 British graves of men fallen in June-July 1917. (I happen to know the location and I think I still have a few photos of it, which is a field now)

- River Douve Cem., Mesen : contained 4 British men fallen June-Nov. 1917.

If you are referring to Pte F. Pike, then I can't help, as there is no date. (Though of course I could find it in CWGC records. Haven't checked yet, bit in a hurry.)

(Found this info in : Michael Scott, the Ypres Salient, p. 71, but it may also be found in the CWGC records on line ; haven't checked yet.)

5 possible locations ... But it may be a start... Especially if you know the area where T. Dunsford fell.

Aurel

[Ali Hollington]

Aurel,

First thank you for your quick reply.

Yes it is Thomas Dunsford I'm looking into, I'm not sure where he was killed as I can't find his unit war diaries at the NA. SDITGW has him as KIA not DOW so I guessing he was killed in counter battery fire at the beginning of the Messines offensive on the date in question. However he could have been else where as a signaller or part of a FOO party hence trying to track down the site of his original burial.

I haven't tried approaching the CWGC direct but thought I'd float this on here first.

Thanks again for the details and if its ok to send me the details of the nine cemeteries that would be great and obviously if anything else comes to mind please let me know.

Regards

Ali

PS I'm glad to say Pte Pike survived the war.

[Terry Denham]

Ali

Contact CWGC on casualtyenq@cwgc.org and ask.

Some of the burial records have survived (not all) and they may be able to give you some info. Be prepared for a long wait though as this type of enquiry is outside their normal daily duties.

Remember that it was the army that did the reburying and not all records were passed over to CWGC when they took over the cemeteries.

[Ali Hollington]

Terry- cheers for the email address, I've sent them a message so fingers crossed.

Regards

Ali

[Aurel Sercu]

(...) and if its ok to send me the details of the nine cemeteries that would be great (...)

Ali,

No problem. I didn't mention them all because 4 did not qualify (no British soldiers buried there fallen in June 1917).

The nine cemeteries are (meanwhile I have found that they are not mentioned in CWGC records ; I don't have accurate map co-ordinates)

- Bell Farm Cem., Wijtschate : road from Messines Ridge Cem. to Spanbroekmolen

- Blauwepoortebeek Cem, Wijtschate (7 British graves Aug-Oct 1917) : northeast of Mesen

- Bousbecques East German Cem. : southside of this village in France (4 British men Nov 1914)

- Bristol Castle Mil. Cem., Mesen : Mesen - Wulveringem road near Wulvergem (32 British men Sep-Oct 1918

- Lumm Farm Cem., Wijtschate : a little east of the Mesen Road

- Middle Farm Cem., Wijtschate ; near the road to Wijtschate, 450 m north of Mesen (14 British men July-Dec 1917)

- Onraet Farm Cem., Wijtschate : 400 m north of the crossroads at the turn to Somer Farm Cem. on the road to St. Eloi.

- Queensland Cemetery, Warneton : road Mesen - Warneton (Waasten)

- River Douve Cem., Mesen (also called Snitchel Farm) on the river bank south of Mesen

Aurel

[Guest Pete Wood]

Some of the burial records have survived (not all) and they may be able to give you some info. Be prepared for a long wait though as this type of enquiry is outside their normal daily duties.

Remember that it was the army that did the reburying and not all records were passed over to CWGC when they took over the cemeteries.

Are these among the items that are being scanned by HMSO?? If so, will people be able to access these items??

Has the scanning project started yet...??

[Terry Denham]

RT

I am not sure about these documents. I hope so.

Those I have seen mentioned are the personal communications with relatives - unfortunately not the WW1 Final Verification Forms as these have been destroyed.

I don't think work has started yet as the contracts have only recently been placed and there will be a great deal of planning to undertake (I hope!).

[Terry Denham]

RT and others

Bad news about the scanning project. In their usual style, the press got the story completely wrong.

It is true that a large contract has been issued for the scanning of CWGC documentation but it will be for internal use only - to avoid constant handling of delicate and ageing paperwork. There are no plans to makes these documents available to the public.

The scanning will take five years to complete.

I must admit that I thought that the press story was a bit low key when such a move as it purported to report would have warranted a major announcement. It also seemed odd that, allegedly, fairly recent private correspondence was going to be made public! I suspect the press release did not come from CWGC.

[Guest Hill 60]

I was lucky when I contacted the CWGC regarding my great uncle William Swain. They (without asking) sent me the map reference where his body was originally found during battlefield clearences in 1919.

To finally stand by his grave was very emotional, but to stand where he had been killed and buried in 1918 was overwhelming.

[Ali Hollington]

well the CWGC has already replied telling me that they have a 4-6 week backlog of enquiries, so fingers crossed, wait out, and hopefully I'll be in a similiar situation to Lee.

Ali

[leigh]

I asked about the location of information relating to certain cemeteries and the occupants, to be told that that it was too much work to investigate. i was only trying to locate the source of the information. Hopefully my 2nd email will be more sucessful.

Regards

L.

[Terry Denham]

We are entering CWGC's busy period and enquiries will take longer. Their workload increases around November 11th.

[Guest Hangleton]

"Where our soldiers rest

The work of identifying and marking the graves of British soldiers who have fallen in France and Belgium is being carried out by a special department of the British Red Cross Society under the direction in London of Lord Robert Cecil, M.P. Those who are carrying out the various grave marking expeditions are making it their business to see that all graves which have been furnished with crosses are registered, and to supply marks of identification as far as possible where they are missing. In many cases where names have been written in ink or pencil the markings have been much injured by the rain"

This is a magazine article of April 1915

Does anyone know if these records exist?

[Terry Denham]

This sounds like the ad hoc unit set up by Fabian Ware as part of the British Red Cross and which was later absorbed by the army and then later again became the independent Imperial War Graves Commission.

Therefore, any records that still exist will be with CWGC or there may still be some with the BRCS.

[Ali Hollington]

Just to sign this one off, I've now received a grid reference for Bdr Dunsfords original burial site. So next time I'm over there (hopefully early next year) I'll try and locate the spot. Not sure how I'll feel about it now that it is a reality, but know its something I must do.

Ali

[BatterySergeantMajor]

This sounds like the ad hoc unit set up by Fabian Ware as part of the British Red Cross and which was later absorbed by the army and then later again became the independent Imperial War Graves Commission.

I thought in the beginning there where two organisations registering, that of Ware and another one (Cecil?), who where then (in 1915) amalgated and absorbed by the army?

Erwin

[Terry Denham]

Erwin

At the beginning of the war Ware went to France and took command of the British Red Cross' ad hoc group registering graves. They undertook systematic searching for graves and recorded their details. They also undertook some medical work.

Cecil was running the Paris office of the British Red Cross and did undertake some searching but only in response to specific enquiries from relatives. However, they naturally, on occasions, found other graves as well as the one for which they were looking.

The two groups quickly began to operate in co-operation and on 2nd March 1915 the two operations were merged under Ware and the new unit was named the Graves Registration Commission. From that point they became the sole unit for graves registration and were officially recognised as such. They were still part of the British Red Cross at this point.

[kevinrolfe]

Thomas Dunsford is my great Uncle.