DNA used to identify British Soldiers' remains

[Tom Morgan]

Not long ago Ian asked about the first use of DNA technology to identify the remains of a British serviceman.

The collected wisdom in the pub suggests that it was in 1995, when DNA technology was used to identify the remains of Tsar Nicholas II. Among his other titles, the Tsar was Colonel-in-Chief of the 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) and also a Field Marshal in the British Army.

I did issue a trivia warning

Further trivia question - does this mean that the Tsar's tomb should have a CWGC headstone?

Tom

[Guest Pete Wood]

Further trivia question  - does this mean that the Tsar's tomb should have a CWGC headstone?

Tom

I believe you are correct. A Field Marshal never retires, so yes he is entitled - IF his family wanted one.....

[Matt Dixon]

I have a good friend who has been working with the MOD on a project in Rwanda and Bosnia using DNA to identify remains. Gruesome but fascinating at the same time.

[Guest Pete Wood]

DNA was used earlier, on a former German soldier.

In 1992 DNA was used to confirm that the body of a drowned man was Josef Mengele.

[Tom Morgan]

Further trivia question  - does this mean that the Tsar's tomb should have a CWGC headstone?

Tom

I believe you are correct. A Field Marshall never retires, so yes he is entitled - IF his family wanted one.....

I hadn't thought about that. Yes..... you can see the problem at once, can't you?

Tom

[Terry Denham]

The above is correct in that FMs who died during the war are entitled to war grave status due to their 'always in service' condition. The headstone would have been a nok decision as he died in his home country (He would be more likely to have had his name on a memorial to the missing as his grave was unknown for some time).

On this basis, if the Tsar was a FM, he should be in the list of war dead as a serving UK soldier!

However, I think we will probably find that there is some loophole which meant he was only an 'honorary' FM or some such phrase.

The Kaiser was also a British FM until he was stripped of the title.

Time for a little lightheartedness. I'll ask CWGC about the Tsar

[Ali Hollington]

Not 100% on this but I believe the USA used DNA to identify the remains of some of the flyers lost during Op Desert Storm (1990-1991).

Slightly off the original question so apologies.

Ali

[Terry Denham]

Believe it or not...

I asked CWGC about the Tsar and they are going to look into it !!!!!

[Nick Cooper]

Believe it or not...

I asked CWGC about the Tsar and they are going to look into it !!!!! 

Oh dear, we're not heading for a diplomatic incident, are we?!

[dycer]

I think we accept the CWGC ruling as final in this case and if a Headstone is offered abide by any Russian Government decision.I cannot see the issue causing a diplomatic incident though.

George

[Simon Furnell]

Interesting topic,i must admit.

So if either of them had been KIA,before 1917/18,they could be on the CWGC,technically?

New one on me,i must admit.

Were they honorary,Bitish,FMships?

I am a trivia fan.

All the best.

Simon.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Believe it or not...

I asked CWGC about the Tsar and they are going to look into it !!!!!

The powers of TERRY DENHAM never cease to amaze me

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

And another trivia question for you - who is the Czar's official next of kin?

Hint - he gave a DNA sample?

Ian

[Jonathan Saunders]

And another trivia question for you - who is the Czar's official next of kin?

Hint - he gave a DNA sample?

Ian

Now which minor royal could that be?

[Terry Denham]

So if either of them had been KIA,before 1917/18,they could be on the CWGC,technically?

Were they honorary,Bitish,FMships?

If the Tsar was, indeed, a Field Marshal in the British army, then he qualifies simply because he died between the qualifying dates.

However, I suspect that it was some sort of 'honorary' position and may not qualify.

CWGC said this afternoon that they will look into the matter and refer it to MoD.

The power of the Forum!

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

And another trivia question for you - who is the Czar's official next of kin?

Hint - he gave a DNA sample?

Ian

Now which minor royal could that be?

Hardly minor fella.

[Terry Denham]

Prince P

[182 CEF]

The first case solved by DNA was in England, it was used to catch a rapist (or murder, I can't remember) in a small town in England. All the men in the town were asked to provide DNA for compairison, one man asked a friend to provide his instead of providing it himself. This became known and the man was caught. The man that developed the DNA test had done so to prove that accused men were not the fathers of babies that the women claimed.

Amazing how far this has gone. I fear that the Unknown Soldier of many countries could be IDed if it was allowed

Just my 2 cents worth.

Dean Owen

Whitby Ontario Canada

[Guest Pete Wood]

That case was in 1986, I think.

[Mark Hone]

As coincidence would have it I only saw the Tsar's Scots Greys' uniform a couple of months ago, in a fabulous 'Nicholas and Alexandra' exhibition at the Museum of Fine Arts in Santa Fe, New Mexico. According to the catalogue, Nicholas was made Colonel In Chief in 1895. As a reciprocal gesture Queen Victoria was made Honorary Colonel of the Preobrazheovsky Life Guards (don't think she wore the uniform, though). He occasionally wore the uniform for official occasions, as on March 20th 1901 when 'we received the Duke of Abercorn with his Ambassador Extraordinary to announce Uncle Bertie's coming to the throne (ie Edward VII). I had to wear my Scots Greys Uniform'. After the revolution, the uniform, along with many other items of Romanov memorabilia, was displayed at the Alexander Palace in the St Petersburg suburb of Tsarkoye Selo. In 1941 the curators heroically rescued many of the treasures ahead of the advancing Wehrmacht and they were put in storage until the fall of Communism. The uniform, complete with bearskin, is still in magnificent condition.

Apparently the band of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys) still play the Russian Imperial Hymn in their repertoire in honour of the Tsar.

[Rob Bulloch]

Hello to the Forum

If I remember correctly the Bass Drummer in the 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Grey's) wears a white busbie (Bearskin) the was presented to the Regiment by the Czar.

Cheers Rob.

[Mark Hone]

The first use of DNA was to identify the murderer of 2 teenage girls in the village of Narborough in the East Midlands in the 1980's. The case was also significant for the mass DNA sampling of 4,000 men in the area which raised questions of civil liberties etc. The case is dealt with in the book 'The Blooding' by US crime writer Joseph Wambaugh.

[Guest Hill 60]

And another trivia question for you - who is the Czar's official next of kin?

Hint - he gave a DNA sample?

Ian

Prince Micheal?

[robbie]

'The Blooding' by US crime writer Joseph Wambaugh.

Mark,

I also read this book when it first came out. Fantastic. In the first trawl of local men they failed to find a DNA match because the offender got his mate to submit to the test.

Robbie

[Mark Hone]

There is a very interesting documentary on the Tsar presented by Prince Michael. To say he is a dead ringer would be an understatement.