Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Help Identify Group of NCO's and Officer possibly 21st Bn Notts an


DB1

Recommended Posts

This group of NCO's and officer could possibly be of the 21st Bn Notts and Derby Regmt. See other post here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=211058#entry2083952

They are clearly men from various regiments but can anyone identify any of the men pictured.

My Granddad was TF Notts and Derby Regiment (Various TF Battalions) before being transferred from the 21st Bn Notts and Derby to 2/6th Durham Light Infantry. He is pictured bottom left. I don't know when or where this picture was taken.

Thanks for looking

Dave

post-109968-0-09355000-1399329348_thumb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it will be difficult to identify any of these men individually, although you may be lucky. The officer is a Lieutenant in the North Staffs, possibly a territorial officer as he appears to have a 'T' below his collar badges. The men either side of the officer each have a wound stripe on their lower left forearm, as does the sgt standing immediately behind your grandfather who appears to have a 'good conduct' chevron on his left forearm.

These are a real mixed bunch which include: ASC, Queen's RWS, RA, N&D, KRRC, R.Fusiliers, Gloucesters and Essex Regt(RSM) and the Canine Corps!

These may well have formed the basis for the NCO's of the battalion.

Hope this helps.

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Robert

Thanks for identifying the Regiment of the officer. I believe they are all TF men as my Granddad remained in TF battalions throughout the war. I had got as far as the wound stripes on the two flanking the officer. I hadn't seen the one on the sgt, good spot. Thanks also for identifying the other Regiments. To be honest I know it’s a shot in the dark but I am posting all the available info I have in the hope that someone looks and spots a relative now or over the next four years when interest is going to be very high. I have found out lots from this forum in a short space of time and greatly appreciate any feedback. I recently posted some info in relation to a post someone started in 2006 with the last post being four years ago, so I remain hopeful.

I can confirm that my Granddad does have a good conduct Chevron on his left arm; I have other pictures where the same mark appears. He was later promoted to Corporal and I believe he would then have had to remove the good conduct stripe although I don't have pictures of him at that time.

Thanks for your info and for looking

Regards

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The two flanking the officer look like Riflemen of some type as they both appear to have black buttons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a thought, but is there any Division where this collection of Battalions occurs? For example, since Dave mentioned his grandfather transferring to the 2/6th DLI, and given the Bns Robert mentions, could it be a collection of NCOs of the 59th Division? I realise that it is a bit of a long-shot thinking that way, but might be another place to start.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The two flanking the officer look like Riflemen of some type as they both appear to have black buttons.

That's a great spot Steve, Thankyou

Drew

They could be 59th (2nd North Midland) Division, at present I am trying to work backwards as I know he was 2/6th DLI in the 59th and that is apparently why the 21st bn N&D transferred to the DLI (the 59th had battalions of the N&D) I am taking a long shot and hoping that someone may now or in the future may recognise one of the men and be able to fill in the gaps of my Grandads history. I haven't had chance to look at the Bn's Robert has mentioned yet but you are correct it could confirm them as 59th division.

Thanks for pointing that out, I am looking at so many avenues at present.

Regards

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Loking again, the bespectacled Sergeant (standing, left) is also a Rifleman, probably 60th Rifles (King's Royal Rifle Corps) by the badge. I very much doubt they're 59th Division - Essex, Rifles, Glosters all unlikely (although, of course, the division was reconstituted after the March Offensive in 1918 so will have lost its North Midland identity).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And again, the chap (Royal Fusilier) behing the officer is a bit of a knut - look at that cap!

Is there any more to the picture? It looks a bit chopped off - the Essex chap seated right has a medal ribbon, which it would be nice to see in full.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there any more to the picture? It looks a bit chopped off - the Essex chap seated right has a medal ribbon, which it would be nice to see in full.

Hi Steve

As I look at the picture on here it is not cropped it contains 21 men, how many are you able to see?.

Just a thought, but is there any Division where this collection of Battalions occurs? For example, since Dave mentioned his grandfather transferring to the 2/6th DLI, and given the Bns Robert mentions, could it be a collection of NCOs of the 59th Division? I realise that it is a bit of a long-shot thinking that way, but might be another place to start.

Hi Drew

25th Bn North staffs, 59th Divisional Train ASC, 25th Garrison Bn The Kings Royal Rifle Corps, 15th Garrison Guard Bn the Essex Regiment, belonged to the 59th (2nd North midland) Division

No Queens RWS, RA, Royal Fusiliers, Gloucestershire Regiments found in the 59th (2nd North Midland) Division.

http://www.1914-1918.net/59div.htm

Will have a look if there maybe any other connection based on the Regiments identified.

Regards

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Possibly a Gas School - considering the gas bags being on display??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The wound badges make the photo post July 1916, the simplified jackets suggest not much later than that, and the wearing of the respirator bag [?] suggests near the front line. I know nothing about the wearing of these bags/ haversacks ......... not my bag.

Get my coat ...............

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Steve

As I look at the picture on here it is not cropped it contains 21 men, how many are you able to see?.

Most odd: yesterday I was looking at it on my work PC, and it was displaying only as far as the left half of the Essex man. Today I am using my laptop ... and the whole thing's displayed perfectly!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

post-79295-0-04735900-1399468886_thumb.j

I thought this gentleman stood out as looking particularly soldierly. Then I saw what looked like a medal ribbon. Is it the Queen's South Africa Medal?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can anyone make anything of the strange ordering of the men in the photo?

The seats next to the officer, which would normally be occupied by the two warrant officers are occupied by a bareheaded sergeant and lance corporal; the only men whose wound stripes are visible. Why in a grouping where everyone is well presented are they bare headed?

I had initially wondered if it was a gas school picture and they had just emerged from something and taken off their gas helmets and not put their caps on, but I don't think that accounts for their positions in the photo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

attachicon.gifEssex Rgt.jpg

I thought this gentleman stood out as looking particularly soldierly. Then I saw what looked like a medal ribbon. Is it the Queen's South Africa Medal?

Probably a QSA but very difficult to say with any certainty as the image is very distorted.

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the headdress-less Rifles men: they are the only ones without gas bags. I wondered if they are staff? Either way, they are improperly dressed, being out of doors and capless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would agree that they may well have been on a course at a gas school. What is of interest for me, is that the respirator haversacks seem to be new.

TR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert

Enlargements as requested. As stated the photo is distorted and is quite obvious in the medal ribbon. I have had a quick go at straightening it to hopefully allow you to identify the ribbon. At some point I will have a good look at cleaning the whole image.

Regards

Dave

post-109968-0-92138900-1399485544_thumb.

post-109968-0-53803800-1399485557_thumb.

post-109968-0-29642200-1399485597_thumb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert

Enlargements as requested. As stated the photo is distorted and is quite obvious in the medal ribbon. I have had a quick go at straightening it to hopefully allow you to identify the ribbon. At some point I will have a good look at cleaning the whole image.

Regards

Dave

Hi Dave,

Many thanks for your efforts. On reflection and having now seen a clearer image I rather feel that this may be the ribbon for the TFEM (Territorial Force Efficiency Medal, 1908). This ribbon is approximately 32mm (1.25 inches, in old money) wide with yellow central stripe.

This would fit well due to the fact that as we believe these are men of a Territorial unit, and, as he is an older man then he would most probably have had enough pre-war service (12 years) to qualify for same.

Hopefully someone else may comment on this?

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please excuse me for speculating a little, but I noticed in one of the earlier posts, that Robert had said that the men in the photo may well have formed the basis for the NCOs of the Bn. Bearing that in mind, a search for “the Battalions in this photo + the DLI & Rank” might give us a few names we can look into. The fact that these men all seem to be NCOs might narrow it down more than you would think.

If we take the Fusilier men as an example, a search of the NA medal cards produce just 7 Lance Corporals who went from the a Fusilier Bn to the DLI (One of whom might be particularly interesting as he is 2/6th DLI). Since there are at least three Fusilier L/Cpls in the photo (I think?), it is at least possible that we may have some of the names we want:

post-79295-0-19923200-1399505841_thumb.p


Taking the Lieutenant, the search results would be even smaller. Possibly just one possibility (shown in red):

post-79295-0-71796500-1399505985_thumb.p

Of course, this is based on the assumption that all these men transferred to the DLI, which may not be the case, and I realize that this is no hard evidence, but it might at least be something to investigate. For example, if we did the same with other men in the photo it could lead to comparative work with Ancestry Service Records, Leads for newspaper searches etc. I hope I am not misappropriating one of Robert’s points. I just find this photo fascinating and want to find out more.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Chris

Seems like a great idea, I will have a look with fresh eyes tomorrow, thanks for your interest. I have found the photo fascinating since I first laid eyes on it also. For me it is because their faces are so clear, I want to know their story. I know it will be difficult but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Cheers

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many thanks for your efforts. On reflection and having now seen a clearer image I rather feel that this may be the ribbon for the TFEM (Territorial Force Efficiency Medal, 1908). This ribbon is approximately 32mm (1.25 inches, in old money) wide with yellow central stripe.

This would fit well due to the fact that as we believe these are men of a Territorial unit, and, as he is an older man then he would most probably have had enough pre-war service (12 years) to qualify for same.

Hopefully someone else may comment on this?

You are welcome Robert

Thanks for your input

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are welcome.

I know it will be difficult but nothing ventured nothing gained.

...and I absolutely agree!

(I could easily have missed some glaring point though. We shall see). :whistle:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...