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Service record lack of info


jingleanna

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My father was wounded in WW1 but his service record with the Seaforth Highlanders does not give the information on where and when this happened.

He enlisted in Feb 1916, embarked for France in Aug 1916 and then there are postings ,one with no 8 (1/9/16) and one with Sea .......?(23/1/17), followed by Command Depot (5/4/17) which I believe is for recuperation.

Later in 1917 he was at Randalstown and transferred to Agri Corps. He received a pension after the war for 1 year

Why is it not clear when he was wounded? I would also love to know where it happened- where the Seaforths were at this time.

Any advice gratefully received.

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Your fathers name and number would be handy !

BillyH.

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Can you post the service record that you have?

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My father was wounded in WW1 but his service record with the Seaforth ...

Why is it not clear when he was wounded? I would also love to know where it happened- where the Seaforths were at this time.

Any advice gratefully received.

There were several battalions and depending on which battalion he served with will determine his location as they didn't all serve together. If you could even give his name and service number, as previously suggested, it would help us to help you.

And by the way, welcome to the forum :)

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His name was John Macrae and his number was 12796? with the Seaforths, no 430926 with the Agri Corps after being wounded. I cannot see which Batallion on the records which are difficult for me to decipher.

Thanks for helping,

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He enlisted at Applecross on 28th Feb 1916

Mobilised at Fort George 19th April 1916

Posted to Infantry Base Depot in France on 11th Aug 1916

Posted to 8th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders on 1st Sep 1916

Back to the Seaforths Depot ("D") on 23rd Jan 1917 (probably due to wounds or sickness)

I would suggest that you could read the 8th Battalion war diary for 1.9.1916 to 23.1.1917

You need WO/95/1939 + WO/95/1940 from National Archives but their search engine is not functioning at the moment so I cannot tell you if they are available on line.

BillyH.

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There is also a mention of the 3rd Battalion on one of his punishment sheets. (A rubber stamp entry) Ralph.

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His record is quite extensive and there is no record of him being wounded. His pension (30% disability) was awarded for 'caries of the ribs' a quick google shows this is associated with TB, someone with more medical knowledge may enlighten you further. He would not have received an award had that illness not been attributable in some way to his military service.

Just to be pedantic he was transferred to two Agricultural Companies within the Labour Corps. So his main unit was the Labour Corps (at the risk of calumny the equivalent of a Regiment) and within the Corps he was posted to the 456 Agricultural Company on 26 October 1917 and later to 403 Company on the 9/8/1919.

So it appears his service in F & F on active duty with the 8th Seaforths dates from the 1st September 1916 to the 23rd January 1917 when he returned to 'D' or the Depot, whether or not this is the IBD in France is not clear. He was back at the Command Depot (Fort George, I believe) on the 5th April and posted to the 3rd Bn (a depot/training unit and part of the Cromarty Garrison see LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/seaforth.htm ) on 7 June and finally transferring to the Labour Corps on 26th October 1917.

Ken

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In common with the modesty of the times I had never seen my father's body, but one person who prepared his body after death said he had a large scar across his chest/ribs probably from a shrapnel wound.

I did find what appeared to be Randalstown on one sheet which was a convalescent camp in Northern Ireland.

We have a photograph of him in full dress uniform which is not the usual attire- what could the occasion have been?

Thank you for your help especially for the information on the 8th Battalion. I shall try and find their war diaries and trace the location of the Battalion in Jan 1917.

The forum is great-I am amazed at the depth of knowledge and expertise you all display.

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If you have his service record it may mention the scar on his medical report sheet, usually page 2 of attestment. This normally notes scars and tattoos.

The scar may also be the result of an op for the caries of the ribs.

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The scar on his ribs could be the result of an operation if he had TB.

The uniform might have been worn just for the photo and have no other significance.

Garth

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There is no mention of scars on his attestation sheet.

The Roll of Honour held locally has him as wounded which would not tie in with an operation scar. Is it possible to find out which hospital he attended?

Thanks again all.

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They were only suggestions.

Not sure how you would find hospital records for him unless any are mentioned in his service record.

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Can anyone post the link to his service record?

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The 8th Seaforh were in the Martinpuich area during January 1917. If the diaries are not yet available to download there is a book 'The History of the 15th Scottish Division' still in print available through the Naval and Military Press website.

Edited typos.

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In common with the modesty of the times I had never seen my father's body, but one person who prepared his body after death said he had a large scar across his chest/ribs probably from a shrapnel wound.

It is also consistent with an operation to remove caries of the ribs, or drain the chest cavity

Ken

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Entry which corresponds with his arrival date of 1st September 1916:

post-70679-0-63692900-1399146742_thumb.j

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8th Bn. wounded casualty numbers for January 1917:
4th 3 wounded.
6th 5 wounded.
7th 2 wounded.
8th 2 wounded.
14th 1 wounded.
15th 2 wounded.
28th 1 wounded.
30th 3 wounded.

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8th Bn. wounded casualty numbers for January 1917:

but there is nothing on his service record to show he was ever wounded! Only that his disability was attributable to his service and that is clearly defined. Against 'Wounded' in his military service record there is a note from 1918 'forwarded again 19/7/1918 Overturned' no idea what it means unfortunately his casualty form is missing.

I don't know enough about the condition to know if it was a consequence of being exposed to chemical weapons.

Ken

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but there is nothing on his service record to show he was ever wounded! Only that his disability was attributable to his service and that is clearly defined. Against 'Wounded' in his military service record there is a note from 1918 'forwarded again 19/7/1918 Overturned' no idea what it means unfortunately his casualty form is missing.

I don't know enough about the condition to know if it was a consequence of being exposed to chemical weapons.

Ken

I was thinking along the lines of gas but I will have to go through other diaries as they are listing killed and wounded at battalion level but not the causes nor are they making much note of any actions causing the casualties. Can gas cause TB? I found this interesting snippet:

'Rib tuberculosis is an extremely rare condition with the incidence not exceeding 3 percent of all skeletal tuberculosis. The authors experienced a recalcitrant case of pulmonary tuberculosis accompanied by chest wall cold abscesses involving ribs recurring at a new site in approximately 10 months despite of medical and surgical treatment. The patient has twice taken thoracotomy for abscess drainage and during the second thoracotomy, a partial resection of involved ribs was performed.' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1309019

I know a family member that has a natural immunity to TB and so when mistakenly inoculated against TB has suffered terrible abscesses on the arm and the scarring is over a large area and is horrendous - referring back to the post of having scarring to his body.

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I was thinking along the lines of gas but I will have to go through other diaries as they are listing killed and wounded at battalion level but not the causes nor are they making much note of any actions causing the casualties. Can gas cause TB? I found this interesting snippet:

'Rib tuberculosis is an extremely rare condition with the incidence not exceeding 3 percent of all skeletal tuberculosis. The authors experienced a recalcitrant case of pulmonary tuberculosis accompanied by chest wall cold abscesses involving ribs recurring at a new site in approximately 10 months despite of medical and surgical treatment. The patient has twice taken thoracotomy for abscess drainage and during the second thoracotomy, a partial resection of involved ribs was performed.' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1309019

I don't think gas can cause TB as it is a bacterial infection but I've no doubt it could exacerbate any pre-existing condition, as it says above rib caries are rare and from my limited 'google knowledge' it seems they are abscesses on the ribs. I found a reference to an operation but it seems pretty grisly and predates the war, perhaps thing had moved on by then

books.google.co.uk/books?id=Fh46AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA606&lpg=PA606&dq=caries+of+the+ribs+operation&source=bl&ots=Ks2C9YjvaH&sig=myUhUg5DW43dlRsCxKBRemMNjWo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PUhlU6eAEsa_OcfigaAP&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=caries%20of%20the%20ribs%20operation&f=false

Ken

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I don't think gas can cause TB as it is a bacterial infection but I've no doubt it could exacerbate any pre-existing condition, as it says above rib caries are rare and from my limited 'google knowledge' it seems they are abscesses on the ribs. I found a reference to an operation but it seems pretty grisly and predates the war, perhaps thing had moved on by then

books.google.co.uk/books?id=Fh46AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA606&lpg=PA606&dq=caries+of+the+ribs+operation&source=bl&ots=Ks2C9YjvaH&sig=myUhUg5DW43dlRsCxKBRemMNjWo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PUhlU6eAEsa_OcfigaAP&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=caries%20of%20the%20ribs%20operation&f=false

Ken

I am in need of some fortification before I open grisly links! I'm off to put the kettle on and raid the biscuit tin! Then I will check out your link and see what I can find at Bde. and Div. level. I was thinking when it mentioned the rarity of Rib Tuberculosis by today's standards - it is, as states pretty rare but nearly 100 years ago, it was probably not so rare and any surgery required for draining abscesses could have also left scarring. It is frustrating that there doesn't seem to be a list anywhere to decipher the disability codes. I do have something tucked away in the pages of a book about the amount of pension allocated per specific injuries but I don't recall it having numerical codes - I've time to dig around for that too tonight.

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I believe that the disability codes lie within PIN 15/33 at TNA but the site seems to be down and I can't get to it at the moment. The single page I have within a book only goes up to number 9 so doesn't cover it but I believe there are more pages to it.

Operations - my eyes are still smarting after reading that and I am off to safer ground with the diaries - fascinating stuff though - a chainsaw and no anaesthetics!

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