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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

.455 Revolver in Brit Service WWl


enfieldman

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Does anybody have anything on the Spanish made, S & W design .455 top break revolvers

that were used in British Service during WWl.

How widespread was their use and what ranks used them?

Why were they used when there were plenty of U.S. revolvers available?

What was their reliability amongst the troops?

Thanks

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TonyE (member) is your man for this. Vol 3 of his "British Secondary Small Arms" has an excellent 10 page summary of these weapons, contracts and numbers.

If I recall correctly, at least 30,000 were delivered from the two main contractors, Orbea & Co producing the vast majority of those (@29,500). The details of other contracts are not known.

TonyE can give you chapter and verse.

Chris

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I don't know how many were issued, it's a good question, but they seem to appear in photographs occasionally, which in itself is interesting as most photographs only show holstered revolvers, so I am thinking that the numbers were significant, I wonder if they survived in use post war or maybe they were passed on to some other lucky foreign government. I hope someone can give you an answer, I would be interested to know.

khaki

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May I add other questions. Why .455? Was this considerably pre WW1 design?

Old Tom

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The design was similar to the 1881 Smith & Wesson (Frontier) revolver that was chambered in 44 Russian and 44/40, the frontier (which I used to own) was very rugged solid top-breaking revolver and I am guessing that those attributes (albeit in a .455 Spanish model) being similar to the Webley made it a popular choice by the British Government. These revolvers were made to order as far as I know for the British Government, I am unsure whether or not they existed in .455 prior to the Great War.

khaki

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The one I have is a WW1 bring back by my great uncle.

He was with the Royal Newfoundland Regiment from the former British Colony

of Newfoundland - now the 10th province of Canada.

It is in great shape and I shoot it regularly the manufacturer is - Garate Anitua Y O - Eibar ( Espana ).

The revolver has British markings on it incl. crown, broad arrow, etc.

No date seen. Anymore info would be appreciated.

Thanks

enfieldman

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Congratulations on having an interesting service revolver with a family connection, perhaps you could post a photograph of the revolver with one of your uncle if you have one. The only other thing that I could comment on the Spanish revolver is that the butt is designed in a manner that seems visually to be a 'skull cracker' to be used as a club. Maybe that's my imagination but those were my first thoughts years ago, anyway you have a legitimate British Great War Service revolver that I would love to have, glad to hear that it's a good shooter

regards

khaki

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A few years ago I missed picking up one of the Spanish .455 top-break revolvers that was marked R.A.V.C. (Royal Army Veterinary Corps??)

I wonder if its main use was putting down horses?

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May I add other questions. Why .455? Was this considerably pre WW1 design?

Old Tom

.455 was the standard pistol cartridge in British service, it had been in service since 1891 (IIRC) as a BP round until about 1897(?) then as a cordite round. It remained in service through WWII although by then it was a jacketed CuNi Bullet.

As in the UK, Spanish officers were required to purchase their own pistols so the arms industry there was equipped to produce such weapons in reasonable quantities.

Chris

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Thanks for the book plug Chris (and for the hospitality last week).

The pistols were issued mainly to Other Ranks but given the shortage of pistols for private purchase in the second half of the war the Spanish pistols may well have also been issued to officers. In fact, there were not "plenty" of American pistols available. Both Colt and S & W were making .455 inch revolvers for Britain but it was difficult to increase production to meet the demand.from the UK.

After the war the Spanish pistols were disposed of in various ways. Some went to the Royal Ulster Constabulary (and were still in use in the early 1950s) whilst others went to Commonwealth police forces. Some at least in Australia were cut down to short barrels for use by plain clothes police. The one shown is marked to the New South Wales police.

Regards

TonyE

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Thanks Tony E and all others.

I will take a photo of the pistol and post it soon, also if I can track

down a photo of my great uncle in WWl dress I`ll post it as well.

thanks

enfieldman ( phil. )

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Hello All;

Here`s a couple of photos of the .455 revolver. & holster.

I`ll have to check with a family member for a photo of my

Great Uncle in WWl uniform & post it later.

thanks

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post-106254-0-81732300-1398084933_thumb.

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Here`s a couple of photos of the .455 revolver. & holster.

That is the .455 " Pistol, O.P. ( Old Pattern ) with a 5 inch barrel, No. I Mark I " Elibar. 1915, service revolver made by Manufactura Especial De Revolvers Garate Anitua y Cie, Elibar, Espana ( Spain ), which like the Webley service revolver, was a 6 shot double-action hinged-frame self-ejecting revolver.

Along with the similar Spanish .455 revolver signed ' Fa De Tracola Aranzabal y Cia, both revolvers were approved on 8th November 1915 and introduced by the List of Changes para 17555.

Along with revolvers purchased from America, to supplement those made by Webley, the British also purchased some 30,000 .455 revolvers from the Spanish, which were delivered between 6th August 1915 and 31st July 1916, of which, your's was one.

Regards,

LF

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The generally accepted production figures for the Spanish .455 revolvers sold to the British, were almost 30,000 ( 29,558 ) produced. However, their quality was poor and their rejection rate by H.M. Inspector of Small Arms was extremely high, and it was reported that by March 1916, there was already a stockpile of some 6,000 rejected Spanish .455 revolvers sitting in Enfield. It seems that most of these 6,000 Spanish .455 revolvers rejected by the British, were sold to the Italians during 1916.


That left about 24,000 Spanish .455 revolvers in British hands, and although after the War, the British Ministry of Munitions held various campaigns to buy back revolvers from demobilized officers, these buy backs related to Webleys, Colts and Smith & Wessons, but not to the Spanish .455 revolvers, which after WW1 found their way to Russia, Ireland and some of the British Dominions.


So out of those 24,000 .455 Spanish revolvers originally issued to the British military during WW1, with losses ' in action ' and other damage sustained for whatever reason, plus those sent to Russia, Ireland and the British Dominions, one assumes that not too many are currently in circulation, although they still turn up for sale, and are usually very reasonably priced, as compared with say the .455 Webleys, Colts or Smith & Wessons.



LF


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Good to know, LF. After having been wounded by shrapnel & shipped back to England for recuperation

my great-uncle William eventually went back into action, but because of his wounds was posted to the

transport section. Coming from a farming background here in Newfoundland, he was quite familiar with handling

horses. Maybe as `deadin` posted previous about putting down horses, could be where he obtained it ??

The revolver does have several British acceptance marks, original holster and cartridge pouch.

The bore is pristine and shoots well ( though I`m not a great shot ). I can post more photos of the markings

but haven`t gotten a service picture of him yet to post.

Another great-uncle, Jack, who is Williams brother died in battle @ Cambrai. I do have a photo of him which

I can post if you would like.

My great-uncle William returned home from the war somewhat disabled, but lived to the grand old age of 98!!

I have several mementoes he gave me from the `trenches` incl. the .455 & many, many stories. He was a grand old man...

thanks

enfieldman

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The revolver does have several British acceptance marks, original holster and cartridge pouch.

I can see the British markings in the top photo shown in post # 15, and your .455 revolver is without doubt one of the Spanish revolvers purchased by the British Government for use during WW1, and what is particularly nice and quite rare, is that you have the revolver plus its holster and cartridge pouch.

Please post any photos you have, they are always interesting to see, and perhaps somewhere, the family has a photo of your great-uncle carrying the revolver ?

Regards,

LF

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I will scan in the photos later today and post them.

Thanks for the interest, I really enjoy this stuff.

Uncle Will knew this & that`s why he shared his things

with me.

enfieldman

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LF

here is a photo of my great uncle, PTE. John L. Hibbs ( William`s brother ), killed @ Cambrai.

A couple of truncates from my great uncle, PTE. William Hibbs.

1. a stripper clip & .303 cartridge from his equipment in the trenches.

2. his Royal Newfoundland Regiment cap badge ( caribou head & newfoundland inscription ).

3. brass device for cleaning brass buttons, part of his kit.

thanks for looking

enfieldman ( phil. )


next photo

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post-106254-0-99198400-1398276049_thumb.

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Great photo's Phil, thanks for posting them, I went down to my local gun shop yesterday and looked at a Spanish .455 he has hanging on the wall, I didn't handle it, but the butt ends in a point maybe an inch or so past the grips. This is what I meant by a 'skull cracker' the revolver had a swivel and loop attached. Maybe there is more than one type??

khaki

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here is a photo of my great uncle, PTE. John L. Hibbs ( William`s brother ), killed @ Cambrai.

Phil,

A really nice group of family keepsakes to go with the revolver, thanks for sharing.

Regards,

LF

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maybe an inch or so short of the grips. This is what I meant by a 'skull cracker' the revolver had a swivel and loop attached. Maybe there is more than one type??

khaki,

Because of the angle at which phil's photo has been taken, it does not show the extent to which his revolver's grip frame protrudes below the bottom of the grip plate, exposing that section of bare metal at the base of the grip, which is typical of the .455 Spanish revolvers made for the British military by Manufactura Especial De Revolvers Garate Anitua y Cie, Elibar, Espana. ( see the attached example in the Pattern Room at Enfield ).

The other .455 revolver also supplied to the British military by the Spanish, was a very similar revolver made by Fa De Tracola Aranzabal y Cia, Elibar, Espana, which does not have that section of exposed metal grip frame below the grip plate. ( see the attached example in the Pattern Room at Enfield ).

Do you know if the one at your local gun shop is ' British ' marked ? If so, it is again one of the small production of 24,000 Spanish .455 revolvers originally supplied to the British military during WW1.

Regards,

LF

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Hello LF,

Yes, the top B&W photo is identical to the one hanging on the GS wall, I didn't examine it, although the dealer is a friend and he has taken the odd one down for me in the past, it is a busy store and getting the 'display only' guns down involves dragging a 8 ft ladder through a busy store. Maybe one day !

regards

khaki

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LF and Khaki

You are right, it is the angle of the photo as taken.

My revolver does have the metal butt extend beyond the hand grips.

The lanyard ring was attached, but I added the lanyard which is white

and is a Royal Navy lanyard. It belonged to my father who was a Royal Navy veteran

of WWll.

thanks

Phil.

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Khaki

what price was the gun shop asking for the .455?

Phil.

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