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Welsh Fusiliers Trench knife / sword number 338


Welsh

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Posting this for a friend , (sorry for the bad pics)

for your consideration is a Welsh Waldon trench Sword/Knife , marked WG338 and & over ?

i know these are extremely Rare so i need some expert advice,

i have looked for hours online without much success due to the rarity.

Is this item Original ?

676193d1397516169t-help-authenticating-r

676194d1397516175t-help-authenticating-r

676195d1397516181t-help-authenticating-r

676196d1397516184-help-authenticating-ra

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Thankyou for the link.

I did come across that one while searching google .

Great information but does not help me with Confimation .

Look forward to solving this puzzle .

Regards,

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Hello guys ,

All I have is a number 338 and maybe from the WW1 Welsh Fusiliers.

Can you tell me a name to whom 338 belongs to ?

Or

What does 338 in the Welsh Fusiliers mean ?

It's all related to my earlier post re the welch knife .

With thanks

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338 will be his service number

John booth 338 welsh guards

W bray 1st welsh brigade

Can i ask where this number come from

Oops beat to it lol

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Here's the previous thread showing the number in context

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209941&hl=

I would say that it is not a RWF 'service' number. It is far too low for a pre war man who served WW1 overseas (assuming a 9th Battalion overseas service) Lowest number in Medal Rolls is 633, most then start at 2xxx. Given the 9th Bn link you'd expect most of their original wartime enlisted men to be 11xxx,12xxx, 13xxx. There is an off chance of it being one of the TF units later transferred to Regular but wouldn't he have his 'regular' number stamped on it? Also, all those TF men that I have seen that were transferred to the Regulars and renumbered, mostly in 1916, also had their TF number on their MIC. There is no 338 showing as such.

Having read somewhere that they were dished out from Trench stores when required I'm not entirely sure if these were personal issue. Maybe some officers had a personal issue but in that case they are not likely to stamp in their old 'Other Ranks' number (in the event that came from the ranks that is)

Hywyn

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Thanks very much for the help so far guys ,

Re they were dished out from trench stores , I have no proof this was done .

Happy to hear where your story is from ?

Also it looks like service numbers were stamped on these knifes as I have seen a few now and there variation in numbers shows me that .

Considering under 1000 were made.

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http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30001257

"The "Welsh Knife" was designed in 1916 by the sculptor and armourer Felix Joubert and patented by him, as a "new or improved trench knife". It was allegedly based on an ancient Welsh weapon, although the existence of such a distinctly Welsh mediæval sword has since been disproved. An unknown, but limited, number of Welsh Knives were manufactured by the Wilkinson Sword Company, at the behest of Lord Howard de Walden. De Walden shared Joubert's interest in mediæval weapons and had the knives issued to the 9th Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, with whom he was serving as a Major. Their blades bore the inscription "Dros Urddas Cymru" ("For the Honour of Wales"). The Imperial War Museum possesses a memorandum, dated 27 January 1920, which relates information on the knife supplied by Colonel H Lloyd Williams, late Commander of the 9th Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers (Lord Howard de Walden commanded the Battalion between September and December 1917; Lloyd Williams took command in October 1918). The memorandum states - "9th Batt'n. Royal Welsh Fusiliers. This battalion made use of a knife with which all machine gunners and bombers were always equipped. Every member of a raiding party was so armed and in one raid on the Messines Ridge two days before the battle of Messines they were used with conspicuous success. They were provided by Lord Howard de Walden and were a replica of a weapon used by Ancient Welsh tribes. They were double-edged, but were intended more for bayonetting than cutting."

Individual numbers within a batch? Have you seen numbers with five digits on the knife?

Lars

Yes I have , and 6 digits .

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Anthony Saunders book 'Dominating the Enemy' as per post 5 in this thread

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20299

What service numbers have you got?

Hywyn

I only have the 338 number ,

Thanks but I can not find another source that shares the same view about trench stores,

More evidence points towards being handed out to the certain group .

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Quoted from a welsh fusiliers expert

" I note the inscription "WG 338". You will be aware this weapon modelled on the Cledd, was issued to Lewis gun teams from the 9th Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers in WW1. The intention being that the men could use them for trench fighting. The cost be funded by their CO; The Lord Howard De Walden who had a great interest in medieval weaponry. Each knife had the following inscription on the blade. "Dros Urddas Cymru" ("For the Honour of Wales ").

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Quoted from a welsh fusiliers expert

"I note the inscription "WG 338". You will be aware this weapon modelled on the Cledd, was issued to Lewis gun teams from the 9th Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers in WW1. The intention being that the men could use them for trench fighting. The cost be funded by their CO; The Lord Howard De Walden who had a great interest in medieval weaponry. Each knife had the following inscription on the blade. "Dros Urddas Cymru" ("For the Honour of Wales ")."

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Quoted from a welsh fusiliers expert

"I note the inscription "WG 338". You will be aware this weapon modelled on the Cledd, was issued to Lewis gun teams from the 9th Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers in WW1. The intention being that the men could use them for trench fighting. The cost be funded by their CO; The Lord Howard De Walden who had a great interest in medieval weaponry. Each knife had the following inscription on the blade. "Dros Urddas Cymru" ("For the Honour of Wales ")."

Not sure what the quote is meant to show.

I have seen it on the facebook page. With due respect to it's originator (whom I know) I think he himself would agree with me when I say he doesn't quite match an author (Saunders) who has '..completed a PhD at Exeter University, studying the invention of British trench warfare munitions and their effect on tactics on the Western Front.'

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Trench-Warfare-1850-1950/p/2303/

The IWM quote in post 12 does not actualy state they were personal issue but merely that they were 'equipped' and 'so armed'

.

I'm still leaning towards not being able to reconcile the amount of men who would have gone through the 9th Battalion to the relatively small amount of these knives. Knowing a bit more about the other numbers you have seen might throw some light on it.

I'm happy to be corrected on my view re 338

Hywyn

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If these knives were impressed with initials and service number, could they have been inscribed after the war?

Is it possible these were drawn from stores by a raiding party as and when needed?

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Seems to me to be quite a bit known about it in general e.g the IWM material quoted and the research material by Anthony Saunders.

It's this particular item that you raise that has too little known about. A bit of provenance of its background may be required to further your initial question which was 'Is this an original' i.e its particular history, is it family heirloom, bought in an auction etc.

Hywyn

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Seems to me to be quite a bit known about it in general e.g the IWM material quoted and the research material by Anthony Saunders.

It's this particular item that you raise that has too little known about. A bit of provenance of its background may be required to further your initial question which was 'Is this an original' i.e its particular history, is it family heirloom, bought in an auction etc.

Hywyn

As a fellow collector , believe the item not the story .

Stories mean nothing.

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I'm not a collector I'm afraid. I wasn't suggesting believing the story but merely obtaining it to weigh up against the other facts in your possession. What is the story?

Hywyn

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I'm not a collector I'm afraid. I wasn't suggesting believing the story but merely obtaining it to weigh up against the other facts in your possession. What is the story?

Hywyn

There is no story sorry .

In the militaria collecting world , most stories told about a item tend to be false or not able to be verified .

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There is no story sorry

In the militaria collecting world , most stories told about a item tend to be false or not able to be verified .

Sorry , my mistake. I had thought that the friend (see post 1) on whose behalf you were enquiring was the New Zealander lady who has posted these photos on Facebook of the item in her possession.

Quote her Facebook entry

"Hello guys , I have this welsh cledd knife/sword "

If that had been the case there would have been some sort of a story about the origins of that particular item in her possession.

Hywyn

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Sorry , my mistake. I had thought that the friend (see post 1) on whose behalf you were enquiring was the New Zealander lady who has posted these photos on Facebook of the item in her possession.

Quote her Facebook entry

"Hello guys , I have this welsh cledd knife/sword "

If that had been the case there would have been some sort of a story about the origins of that particular item in her possession.

Hywyn

Sorry yes that is my partners facebook , I don't use facebook myself . Hence the confusion .

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