Prisoners of the Turks

[ddycher]

Maureen

Thanks. I had not come across Patricia Brown's thesis before. I am trying to locate a copy.

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Ann

Thanks. I wish there was an equivalent of this in the British Archives.

Regards

Dave

[MaureenE]

There is now a FIBIS Fibiwiki page called Prisoners of the Turks (First World War)

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Prisoners_of_the_Turks_(First_World_War)

It includes some links which have not previously mentioned on this GWF thread, and refers to another Fibiwiki page

Mesopotamia Campaign, for those taken prisoner in Mesopotamia.

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Mesopotamia_Campaign

Cheers

Maureen

[Stuart24]

Hi

I have a few thoughts on this topic that may be of interest.

Many other ranks were not in the camps listed, but volunteered for working parties, often working on improving the road and rail systems in the mountains of Anatolia. They were separated into small groups and moved around, so you may never be able to find out exactly where any particular soldier was. Some volunteered for this work out of boredom of camp life, but more seem to have done so because the Ottomans paid them. Conditions were pretty rough in the camps as well as on the working parties, and those who worked received £T1 a week from the Ottomans on top of the £T10 a month that the British government advanced them from their wages. This could all help to buy extra food, clothes, fuel etc. Discipline could be brutal - there are accounts of men being flogged - and life in the mountains very harsh. Some 3,290 men are known to have died as PoWs, but 4,500 more are known to have been captured but were never accounted for. Presumably many of these were simply buried by roadsides.

Some other good sources for life in the camps are the memoirs of Lt Cedric Hill - 'The Spook and the Commandant' - and Lt Elias Jones - 'The Road to En-Dor'. These also give accounts of one of the most incredible escape attempts in the history of warfare, and are well worth a read. There is also useful information in the newsletters that were passed around the societies established by the families of men in particular camps, such as the Kedos Gazette. In these, families pooled their letters and news, so you get a good, broad depiction of life. I know that there are some of these in the archive at the RAF Museum (AC97/127 - Wing Commander Malcolm Begg and Captain John Philpott collection) and in the Museum of the Queens Own Worcestershire Hussars (Yeomanry) (2/Lt George Wright's collection).

I hope that this of interest,

Stuart

[MaureenE]

Thanks Stuart.

One of the books you mention, The Road to En-Dor is available online, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Mesopotamia Campaign (see link above, post 28)

Here is the Amazon page for the other book you mention The Spook and the Commandant

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Spook-commandant-C-Hill/dp/0718301242

I have come across references to a couple of other other memoirs:

Other Ranks Of Kut by P. W. Long M.M. Flight Sergeant R.A.F, 1938. The author, Percy Walter Long was at the time was a Driver , 67528, 63rd Battery, R.F.A. This book seems to be one of the few published accounts by a British "Other rank"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Other-Ranks-Of-Kut-Long/dp/1845741994 Amazon details of a reprint.

There are details of the book , with transcriptions of a couple of the chapters, in the following link. Long’s account starts on 30th April 1916, the day after the surrender of Kut.

http://www.saradistribution.com/otherranksofkut.htm

Another memoir is Captured at Kut, Prisoner of the Turks: The Great War Diaries of Colonel William Spackman by Colonel R.A. Spackman

http://www.amazon.co.uk/CAPTURED-KUT-PRISONER-THE-TURKS/dp/184415873X Amazon details. This is the edited version of a longer manuscript at the Imperial War Museums " covering his service as Regimental Medical Officer to the 48th Pioneers, 6th Indian Division in Mesopotamia, 1914 - 1915, at Kut during the siege, December 1915 - April 1916, and as a prisoner of war in Anatolia, 1916 – 1918"

I have come across a number of other references which I have added to the FIBIS Fibiwiki page "Prisoners of the Turks (First World War)" (see my post 28 above). These include some digital files from the National Archives of Australia, which are copies of documents forwarded from the British Government, for information.

Cheers

Maureen

[Philip Wilson]

'The Road to Yozgad - My War 1914-19' by Lt.Arthur Valentine HOLYOAKE, Queen's Own Worcestershire Hussars transcribed and edited by Douglas BRIDGEWATER is well worth reading; ISBN 978-1-908336-74-3, published in 2013. HOLYOAKE fought against the Senussi in the Western Desert and against the Turks in the Sinai before being captured on Easter Sunday 1916. He spent two and half years as a POW, largely at Yozgad in the centre of Turkey. Good bibliography and 18 pages of biographical details.

[MaureenE]

Adventures in Turkey and Russia by E H Keeling, London 1924 is available to read online on the Digital Library of India website. He was captured at Kut, and the initial chapter details the the very poor medical condition of many of those captured. Edward Keeling Wikipedia. He was in the Indian Army Reserve of Officers.

Cheers

Maureen

[Philip Wilson]

Pyramids and Fleshpots - The Egyptian, Senussi and Eastern Mediterranean Campaigns, 1914-16 by Stuart HADAWAY first published in 2014, ISBN 978 0 7524 9906 2, includes a useful appendix on Prisoners of War in Turkey. Well worth reading.

[Stuart24]

Hi Philip,

Thanks! Glad you found it interesting/useful. After working for your sister museum in Worcester, I knew how grim things had been for the PoWs after Qatia and was determined they shouldn't be forgotten.

I had hoped to do a comparison appendix on Ottoman prisoners on Egypt, but just couldn't find the sources beyond a couple of Red Cross reports - any ideas, anyone?

Cheers

Stuart

[MaureenE]

There is an online article called Prisoners of War (Ottoman Empire/Middle East), by Yücel Yanıkdağ, University of Richmond, (USA}

http://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/prisoners_of_war_ottoman_empiremiddle_east

The Selected Bibliography indicates Yücel Yanıkdağ has written a book/article/PhD thesis? called Ill-fated sons of the nation: Ottoman prisoners of war in Russia and Egypt, 1914-1922, Ohio 2002: Ohio State University.

Cheers

Maureen

[Stuart24]

Thanks Maureen!

I'll currently building up to writing the final volume in my trilogy (on the 1918 campaigns) and hopefully will be able to gather enough information to fit the Ottoman prisoners in to this one.

All the best

Stuart

[bob lembke]

Just reading Professor Rogan's The Fall of the Ottomans, mostly on Gallipoli, and it stated that at the Kut surrender negotiations, the Turkish commander offered to let the British transport the POWs

up-river on British steamers, and promised that the steamers would be returned to the Brits after the mission, but that this offer was refused. The book did not give a clear reason. Seemingly the Turks

gave each captured officer an allowance and one servant, but the OR faced bleak conditions on the march north. I had heard that one officer refused special treatment and marched with his men. Anyone

hear why this offer was refused?

My father served in the Turkish Fifth Army, as a volunteer, in 1915, and the conditions, both as he described them, and as I have read in primary sources, were hardly survivable for Europeans, even with

special efforts to make the conditions better. And the Turks had a very bad opinion of anyone who surrendered to the enemy, and even of anyone who had a brim to his cap or hat, for some reason.

[infantry]

Hi to all,

i'm interesting about the fate of civilians from Serbia sent from Bulgarian occupied zone to Otoman empire in 1915-1918. The male sent on hard work to the mines, and some women, child and older peoples sold to slave especially younger women. Some of them never came back to Serbia.

kind regards

Beograd

No Serbian civilians were transported to the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Around 2000 Serbian POWs captured by the Ottoman units were actually despatched. Most of them worked at railway lines. How many of them perished during captivity? No idea but I don't think the number is high due to the fact that POWs working at railway lines received better rations.

[MaureenE]

Article which mentions a number of personal accounts.

"Precious and Honoured Guests of the Ottoman Government" by Panayiotis Diamadis, pages 162-179 ''Genocide Perspectives II,'' 2002. The author is a lecturer at the University of Technology, Sydney.

http://www.armeniangenocide.com.au/files/diamadis%20precious%20GPII.pdf (edit: this link doesn't appear to work if you click on it, but OK if you copy and paste.)

https://web.archive.org/web/20150227152849/http://www.armeniangenocide.com.au/files/diamadis%20precious%20GPII.pdf Same link from Archive.org

Cheers

Maureen

[lancashire]

Having just read 3 books on this Region, the clue as suggested earlier I fell is is "Ottoman POW Camps" 2 of the books (Kut in Captivity with the 6th Indian Division EWC Sandes and Kut 1916 P Crowley) predominantly are reports of the post Kut officer echelons however they frequently met POW who were captured elsewhere certainly some form the Suez battles, in some case names are given often the regiment and battle.

Without doubt the Turks moved them all to Ottoman POW camps / Construction teams, various Medical Officers were left at (named) hospitals along the route a few POW were exchanges occurred too.

Wages and Red Cross supplies were paid / distributed by a number of organisations American Councils (numerous),The Netherlands Embassy, American Red Cross, some named American Colleges helped, the Swiss Red Cross sent an inspection team (named / dated some locations given).

I suspect information is out there how to locate it is another issue, sorry this is not much individual help is just widens the search scope!

Another officier (I think off hand Capt EO Mousley RFA), started“the prisoners in Turkey Committee, this officer also was placed on “special duty” to assist officers in escaping and was involved with their repatriation returning to Mesopotamia in October 1918.

[MaureenE]

There is a GWF thread Smyrna

which has information about POWs who were repatriated through Smyrna in October 1918, some of who died there, when the end of their ordeal was in sight.

Maureen

[MaureenE]

     Online article

"How British Prisoners Left Turkey" by Lieutenant-Colonel E H Keeling page 682 Blackwood’s Magazine January-June 1919, Volume 205 Archive.org. The practical difficulties associated with the repatriation of prisoners of war.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[seaJane]

Maureen,

 

I notice also that the same volume of Blackwood's Magazine begins with Chapter 1 of '450 Miles to Freedom', by two Kut escapees, Captains Johnston and Yearsley.

 

Link here for the interested.

 

sJ

[MaureenE]

The book mentioned by Jane is also available online  as a complete book

• Four-Fifty Miles to Freedom by Captain M A B Johnston, RGA and Captain K D Yearsley RE 1919 Archive.org. The cover title is 450 Miles to Freedom. The authors were at Kastamoni, Changri and Yozgad

 This link, and the link I mentioned in post 42, together with many other online books, may be accessed from the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Prisoners of the Turks (First World War)

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Prisoners_of_the_Turks_(First_World_War)

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

[Ed ROBINSON]

Greetings and thanks to every one for your contributions which I discovered whilst researching a medal group to a Pte George LOBBAN 3419, 1st Battalion HLI.

From what I have discovered so far is that he was taken POW June?1916 during one of the battles to relieve Kut before it fell. His pension card records his disabilities as GSW ( Gun shot wound) Malaria,  Dysentery, Abdominal (unreadable) and Jaundice.  He was discharged in 3/4/19 and pension granted 4/4/19. Further his medals are recorded as forfeited 28/4/1921. 

As of this stage I have no idea what he lost his medals for,but from what I know now about the hellish conditions in Mesopotamia and the fate of British POWS in the hands of the Turks he was lucky to survive.  God knows what sort of PTSD problems he would have been suffering from to then bring disgrace upon the Army to have his medals forfeited. 

Thanks again for the excellent posts and information as always.

Cheers Ed Robinson

[charlie962]

58 minutes ago, Ed ROBINSON said:

Pte George LOBBAN

Did you see his records at ICRC ?Misfiled index card but there are 4, 2 for Lobban and 2 for Loddan which take you to the detailed sheets. Here is the first card if you haven't seen it already.   LOBBAN

This extract from one of the sheets shows his date of capture: 7/3/1916 (it says Kut but probably he was taken Dujaila Redoubt)

 

From then he appears on a Hospital list for Baghdad May 1916, a list for AKH, for AKH trf to Angora Oct 1916, Angora to Kastamuni in 1917 etc.

 

Charlie

Edited 5 March , 2019 by charlie962

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Did you see his recors at ICRC ?Misfiled index card but there are 4, 2 for Lobban and 2 for Loddan which take you to the detailed sheets. Here is the first card if you haven't seen it already.   LOBBAN

 

Charlie

Good find - I've been going round and round in circles looking for that one. I note his service number is P.1186 on the first card not 3419, but presumably the same man. BTW, did you see there are three cards completely misfiled at the end of the block for "Lister".

 

Cheers,

Peter

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

three cards completely misfiled

The series of L's and Ms and Ns are full of misfiles. someone obviously dropped the drawer. The Ns eg Nichol can be found under Michol,the Ls like Lobban under Mac Lut, etc. You just have to search all the cards when you are inthis range L-N !

[PRC]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

The series of L's and Ms and Ns are full of misfiles. someone obviously dropped the drawer. The Ns eg Nichol can be found under Michol,the Ls like Lobban under Mac Lut, etc. You just have to search all the cards when you are inthis range L-N !

 

I was still going through the "L's" when I saw your post. These three are well and truly misfiled – it’s more than just a dropped drawer :-) .

 

Private 2438 A. Clyde Corbett 1/1 Worcestrshire Yeomanry. Captured 23/04/1916, Katia.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4466339/3/2/

 

Private 1362 Arthur Downer 1/8 Hampshire Regiment. Captured 12th August 1915, Anaforta, Gallipoli.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2893317/3/2/

 

Lieutenant Arthur George Forbes, 4th Hampshire Regiment, captured at the fall of Kut-el-Amara

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/533399/3/2/

 

There's a big project there to identify where all the mis-files are. If only sites like the ICRC would crowd source corrections from the likes of the GWF :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[charlie962]

At one stage we were collecting these misfiles (incl on the main F&F section) on the LLT's forum, which then went in to suspended animation; @charlie2

can perhaps suggest where these are best collated now ?

 

charlie962