Prisoners of the Turks

[ddycher]

All

New area of research for me. Can anyone give some guidance on how to look for POW's of the Turks in Palestine 1917/8 ? Would appreciate any guidance.

Regards

Dave

[rmcguirk]

Hi Dave,

An interesting topic. Suggest you start with this list of Ottoman POW camps. You'll find a map and place names here:

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/cgi-bin/dkv/gutenberg/zoomer_steuer.cgi?pn=c1

Otherwise, there must be a list of British Prisoners held by the Turks at the NA, although a quick google by me hasn't been particularly helpful.

Regards and Happy Easter,

Russell

· Turkish Prison Camps

· 1. Adana

· 2. Afion Karahissar

· 3. Aleppo

· 4. Ankara

· 5. Aziziah

· 6. Baghdad

· 7. Bagtche

· 8. Belemedik

· 9. Bey Shehir

· 10. Bor

· 11. Bozanti

· 12. Brousa

· 13. Changri

· 14. Constantinople

· 15. Damascus

· 16. Derbisieh

· 17. Diarbekr

· 18. Dorak

· 19. Entelli

· 20. Eskishebir

· 21. Galliopoli

· 22. Hauran

· 23. Islahiya

· 24. Kastamuni

· 25. Kedos

· 26. Konia

· 27. Kotma

· 28. Kut-al-Amara

· 29. Mosul

· 30. Nisibin

· 31. Osmania

· 32. Ouchak

· 33. Ourfa

· 34. Ras el Ain

· 35. Shamrun

· 36. Smyrna

· 37. Yozgad

[ddycher]

Thanks Russell

Total blank on this one so far. Lots of ref's for POW's at Gallipoli and Kut but nothing for Palestine. Will be at Kew next week so will see what I can find there.

Regards

Dave

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The AIF records have a number of documents relating to our PoW's during the fighting in Egypt and Palestine.

Men like these, to name a few

SOLEY Thomas Montague Newey 10 AM 1 Half Flight AFC Mesoptamia to Cpl PoW 29-4-16 captured at Kut died at Nisibin bewteen june-july 1916 recom DCM - for his work at Kut between Dec 1915 to April 1916
SLOSS James MacKenzie 11 AM 1 Half Flight AFC Mesoptamia to Cpl T/Flight/Sgt 11-15 recom DCM awarded MSM - for his actions at Kut el Amara PoW 29-4-16 captured at Kut
WILLIAMS Leo Thomas 16 AM 1 Half Flight AFC Mesoptamia PoW 29-4-16 captured at Kut reported died starvation at Adana Turkey NKG listed on The Basra Memorial Iraq

to airman brought down

McELLIGOTT Joseph 31 Sig 11 LHR RHQ att Sig/Cpl DSqn/05 LHR 8-15 (G) rtn Sig/Sgt RHQ/11 LHR 2-16 MID - reason not stated possibly for his work with Cpl Groundwater during Romani operations 8-16 prom 2/Lt 10-17 to (obsvr) 67 Sqn (1 Sqn) AFC 1-18 att 3 SMA 2-18 MID - reason not stated PoW 1-5-18 brought down with Capt Rutherford shot down by AA fire near Amman to Kara Hissar Turkey repat to Egypt 21-11-18 Ex AN&MEF Pte 2Bn (1729) disch 18-9-14

to men captured during the desert fighting

MAY. Herbert George 933 Pte 9 LHR 5R to B Sqn (G) att scout 3 LH Bde HQ? PoW 27-3-17 to Amanus Turkey died dysentery at Nigdi hosp buried Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery Iraq brothers Stanley 48Bn and AE May HMAS Parramatta
TIERNEY Arthur 941 Pte 8Bn HCo to DCo 1-15 (G) to 2Co/1Bn ICC 2-16 PoW 19-4-17 in fighting at Tank Redoubt sent to Zarbaschi working on the Turkish railway to Bagdad repat to UK 1-19
ROBERTS George Albert 958 Pte 01 LHR 5R tos B Sqn 11-15 (G) att WFF to RHQ 5-16 reported MIA PoW 4-8-16 during fighting at Romani to Afion Hissar camp in Turkey repat to UK 12-18 (British The Essex Yeomanry to The Royal Fusiliers TA 4 years)
YOUNG James Gordon 970 Pte 7 LHR 5R to A Sqn 10-15 (G) reported WIA 28-3-18 & PoW 28-3-18 at Amman
WARD John Edmund Newman 973 Pte 02 LHR 5R tos B Sqn B Troop? 10-15 (G) MIA & PoW 4-8-16 in cossack post on night 3/4-8-16 at Romani died pneumonia at Angora Turkey NKG listed on Memoria at Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery Iraq AKA John Edward Ward

This is just a sample as I have many listed as Pow's during the war.

S.B

[trajan]

SOLEY Thomas Montague Newey...died at Nisibin

McELLIGOTT Joseph ... Kara Hissar Turkey

MAY. Herbert George ...died dysentery at Nigdi hosp

ROBERTS George Albert ... to Afion Hissar camp in Turkey

Hi Steve,

I don't know how well up you are on Turkish geography and modern place names, and while some of those you list will be obvious (e.g., Adana = Adana, Angora = Ankara), just in case you are at all lost with the others:

Nisibin = Nusaybin (on modern Turkish-Syria border)

Kara Hissar = Afyonkarahisar (usually shown on maps simply as Afyon)

Nigdi = Nigde

Afion Hissar = Afyonkarahisar

Julian

[trajan]

Hi Dave,

An interesting topic. Suggest you start with this list of Ottoman POW camps. You'll find a map and place names here:

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/cgi-bin/dkv/gutenberg/zoomer_steuer.cgi?pn=c1

Interesting link Russell! Never realised that there were quite that many POW camps in what is now Turkey! I knew of the Afyon one, and I had heard from local sources that Ankara Kalesi, the old castle area, was a POW camp in WW1, but have not been able to find anything on this in the local sources. Can/will you point me to a reliable source on that Ankara one?

TIA,

Julian

[beograd]

Hi to all,

i'm interesting about the fate of civilians from Serbia sent from Bulgarian occupied zone to Otoman empire in 1915-1918. The male sent on hard work to the mines, and some women, child and older peoples sold to slave especially younger women. Some of them never came back to Serbia.

kind regards

Beograd

[T8HANTS]

I have a list of about 65 8th, Hants over half were captured in Palestine.

[MaureenE]

An interesting topic. Suggest you start with this list of Ottoman POW camps. You'll find a map and place names here:

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/cgi-bin/dkv/gutenberg/zoomer_steuer.cgi?pn=c1

The above link quoted by Russell comes from http://www.gutenberg-e.org/steuer/index.html

Pursuit of an 'Unparalleled Opportunity': The American YMCA and Prisoner of War Diplomacy among the Central Power Nations during World War I 1914-1923 by Kenneth Steuer. It was written as a dissertation in 2008. It is on the website of Gutenberg-e, a program of the American Historical Association and Columbia University Press.

Cheers

Maureen

[ddycher]

Folks

Many thanks for this.

Any recommendations on how to track down 75th Division men who were captured ? I have trawled through Discovery on the National Archives site but as Russell states nothing there.

Steve - will cross ref the Australian records and see if I can get any insights from there.

T8 how did you track down the 8th Hants men ?

Regards

Dave

[rmcguirk]

Never realised that there were quite that many POW camps in what is now Turkey! ... Can/will you point me to a reliable source on that Ankara one?

Hi Julian,

I'm afraid I don't have any reliable info on the Ottoman camps for POWs, and certainly nothing on Ankara. For what it's worth, back in the '30s there was a writer called Francis Yeats-Brown who wrote at least two books about his time as a POW in Turkey--mostly in Constantinople, I believe. The titles are (1) Golden Horn and (2) Caught by the Turks. Though he was a POW, I have the feeling he wrote these more as adventure stories than as accurate record of his time in Turkey. The second title can be found at

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/37343/37343-h/37343-h.htm

Regards,

Russell

[trajan]

Thanks Russell

[rmcguirk]

Dave,

Have you come across this? I've highlighted two sections which might be helpful.

Regards,

Russell

WWI Prisoners of War in Germany & Turkey

http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/information/wwi-prisoners-of-war-in-germany

The National archives

The National Archives does not hold a comprehensive list of all British and Commonwealth PoWs. Consequently, it can be difficult to establish whether an individual was actually taken prisoner and, more particularly, in which camps they were held.

Officers

Establishing whether an Officer was a PoW is relatively straightforward and researchers should ask in The National Archives Library for the List of British Officers taken prisoner in the various Theatres of War between August 1914 and November 1918, compiled in 1919 by the military agents Cox and Co.

This is arranged by theatre of war, and then by regiment. It includes an index of regiments at the start of the book, and a name index at the back. The list covers the British Army, Royal Air Force, the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Naval Division, and gives the name and rank of the officer, the date when he went missing, where and when he was interned (but not the specific camp/s), and the date of his repatriation. If the officer died while a prisoner, the list gives the date and place of death.

In addition, officers were required to provide a report concerning the circumstances behind their capture. These, if they survive, will be found in the individual service records.

Other ranks

There are no known official or published sources to help determine whether an ordinary serviceman or Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) was a PoW. Theoretically, it should be recorded on their service record, although this information is usually minimal, merely giving dates of capture and/or release, or is sometimes indicated on the WW I Medal Entitlement fiches held in the Open Reading Room.

The primary source for personal information are the reports made by repatriated, escaped or interned Officers, Medical Officers, Other Ranks, and occasionally Merchant Seamen and Civilians, held in WO 161/95-100 and indexed by WO 161/101. As well as a narrative of variable length, these reports usually include details of unit, home address, when and where captured, wounds suffered, transfer between camps, comments on treatment and conditions in camps and escape attempts. A copy of the entire WO 161/101 index is available in the TNA reading room at Kew and can also be downloaded online.

The following key in the WO 161 series is used to distinguish who made a report: O = Officers; MO = Medical Officers; no prefix = Other Ranks. Researchers should note it is the page number/s next to the name in the index that is important. The table below shows which file should be consulted.

WO 161/95 - Officers: Pages 1-538

WO 161/96 - Officers: Pages 539-1169

WO 161/97 - Medical Officers: Pages 1-398

WO 161/98 - Other ranks: Pages 1-821

WO 161/99 - Other ranks: Pages 1576-2402

WO 161/100 – Other ranks: Pages 2403-4177

There is a gap between pages 822-1575 in the 'other ranks' records. However, some of these and duplicates of other WO 161 reports can be found in FO 383 (see below). You can download images of the files WO 161/95-100 (and the index WO 161/101).

Second, PoWs can be searched for by name within Discovery, our catalogue - restricting the search to record series reference FO 383. This series of records contains the files of the Prisoners of War and Aliens Department, which was established in 1915 to deal with all matters relating to conditions for prisoners, repatriation and general policy. There is also a card index to Foreign Office correspondence located in the reading room at The National Archives. Between 1915-1918 each year includes a dedicated PoW section arranged by country and subject. While in most instances the card index entries will point to a FO 383 reference, they can lead to other FO series that hold documents concerning PoWs.

Other relevant Merchant Navy records are contained in MT 9 (code 106), which includes some files indexed by individual name and/or ship. For the Royal Navy, Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS), Royal Navy Reserve (RNR) and the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve (RNVR), try searching the ADM 12 registers, while for the Royal Air Force (RAF), Royal Flying Corps (RFC) and RNAS, try the Air History Branch indexes to AIR 1 located in the reading room.

[ddycher]

Russell

Many thanks for this. Have chased down every thread I can think if and come up blank. Feels like one of those where you know you are missing the obvious but for the life of me can't think of it.

Regards

Dave

[T8HANTS]

T8 how did you track down the 8th Hants men ?

Sorry I missed your question. I found my list through paperwork concerning the small sums of money the men were sent from the Regimental Relief Fund, which had to be sent through Diplomatic channels. The paperwork is in the Foreign Office files at the N.A., and was found by their search engine.

Gareth

[ddycher]

Thanks Gareth.

Will take another look there.

Regards

Dave

[Phil Wood]

There are lists of POWs in the Red Cross enquiry lists - many of which have been reprinted by N&MP.

For instance the list (No 14) published 1 Aug 1917 has over 180s POW from the 8th Hants who were captured while serving in the EEF.

There is no information as to POW camps - just force (BEF, EEF, Balkans, Persian Gulf, etc), unit, name rank and number plus date captured. However, the fact that they are on a Red Cross list implies that the Red Cross may have further information. Sadly this is costly though there has been talk of their info coming online at some point.

[ddycher]

Thanks Phil

Have ordered a copy of the December 1918 list from N&MP.

Regards

Dave

[Phil Wood]

I hope it helps! Just realised mine is lists of Wounded and Missing not POWs - which will, of course, include POWs but many will be dead.

[Darren Evans]

A photo taken 2 years ago showing a small list of names.

[ddycher]

Darren

Thanks. Sorry I missed you reply. I have been looking for 75th Div prisoners and as yet have not located a single one. Which I find incredible. Especially in the mid 1918 period. Your post however supports this.

Struggling.

Regards

Dave

[Guest skytanker]

Hi all.

I can add only one name to this list, as I got a WW1.medal to a former POW of the turks,

Lieut. Hugh Leslie Collins, South African Field Artillery, It is mentioned in his papers that he was detained at Nazareth 16.2.1918.Later in Constatinoble 18.4.1918 "Quite well" was mentioned in the papers.

Removed to Afion-Kara-Husar in Turkey.

Collins was repatriated back to Alexandria in Egypt 21.11.1918

The war started for Collins on the 11.8.1914 as a gunner in the Transvaal Horse Artillery where he fought in the war in German Southwest Africa.

He was taken on strength of the South African Field Artillery, for the war in German East Africa on the 9.9,1915. He sailed on the ship "Huntsville" for Dar es Salaam on the 9.2.1917

Recommended for mention in dispatches 30.5.1917

The trip to Egypt started in Durban on the ship HMT "Umfali" on the 4.11.1917 he disembarked at Port Suez on the 7.12.1917

Kind regards

Kjeld

[MaureenE]

The following link is called "Prisoners of War (Ottoman Empire/Middle East)" by Yücel Yanıkdağ and it has a section "Entente Prisoners of War in the Ottoman Empire"

http://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/prisoners_of_war_ottoman_empiremiddle_east

One of the references is a MA thesis by Patricia Brown In the hands of the Turk: British, Indian and Dominion prisoners from the ranks in the Ottoman empire, 1914-8 University of Leeds. The date given for this thesis is 2012, but I found one reference to this being a 1970 thesis.

​Having read some accounts of the prisoners taken at the fall of Kut, and their subsequent experiences, with accounts of prisoners dying by the roadside on forced marches, I get the impression that relevant records were unlikely to have been kept.

Cheers

Maureen

[AnnMcD]

If you are able to access Ancestry go to the Australian site by clicking on "Visit our other sites" and bring up Australia, click on search and go to Card Catalogue. Use Chronicles as the keyword and that will bring up the Chronicles of the NZEF. Nearly every edition has a report from the New Zealand Prisoners of War Department run from the High Commissioner's office in London. The department maintained lists of all NZ PoWs whether serving with the NZEF or other forces and arranged for food parcels, etc to be sent to them. Given that the NZEF was in Egypt and Palestine from 1914 to 1919 there were a number of New Zealanders held by the Turks from Gallipoli onwards. I'm sorry I don't have a list of the names so you'll need to scroll through the Chronicles to find the references. Occasionally letters from the men are quoted.

The papers for the men can be accessed via the New Zealand Archives website at http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/although they don't usually contain much in the way of information concerning their captivity. In some instances there are newspaper reports on the experiences of some of the men following their return to New Zealand at http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

Ann

[ddycher]

Kjeld

Many thanks for this. I had no previous ref's for any of the SAFA men being captured. So you know on what date he was taken ?

Regards

dave