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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Somme Film


Michelle Young

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Thanks David, so Tom Spencer is (possibly) the man in the Ernest Brooks photo Q 753, but not the man in the still from the Malins film, and the "died shortly after" pertains to the man in Malins film, not the Brooks photograph?

Confused Mike

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Thanks David, so Tom Spencer is (possibly) the man in the Ernest Brooks photo Q 753, but not the man in the still from the Malins film, and the "died shortly after" pertains to the man in Malins film, not the Brooks photograph?

Confused Mike

Don't worry, it confuses a lot of people!

That is correct - the identity of the man in Q 753 carrying the wounded soldier on his shoulders was named, contemporaneously as Driver Tom Spencer, RGA. The soldier in the film, the Battle of the Somme who carries the same fatally wounded soldier has been putatively identified by over 80 people according to the IWM. As I understand it, other people have suggested alternative names for Tom Spencer, but there are far fewer identities proposed.

If you watch the film closely, as Fraser/Robershaw did, you will note that "Tom Spencer" appears at the rear of the trench (he gets passed a tin of food and looks knackered) in the Battle of the Somme just as the other soldier carries him towards where Malins was filming. Robershaw/Fraser refer to these two men as "cardigan man" and "shirt sleeve man" respectively.

If you need further clarification, let me know

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So the same wounded man is carried at some point by Spencer and the mystery man, and filmed by Malins. This same man was handed from Spencer to the mystery man. Where does Brooks come into it? Were Malins and Brooks at the same location on the same day, if not, surely the wounded person is a different man in each image?

Mike

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I have two ambitions with regard to the mystery man. One is to see him conclusively identified before the end of the Centenary period .... and the other, again before the end of the Centennial, is to see just one WW1 documentary that he doesn't appear in ...

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More chance of the former Mick!

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So the same wounded man is carried at some point by Spencer and the mystery man, and filmed by Malins. This same man was handed from Spencer to the mystery man. Where does Brooks come into it? Were Malins and Brooks at the same location on the same day, if not, surely the wounded person is a different man in each image?

Mike

Mike, the film and image of the same wounded soldier were shot on the same day, 1st July. Malins and Brooks were in the same locale on this date - although if you read "How I Filmed the War", you would never have guessed.

Just to make things more confusing, two stretcher bearers in the film carry the same wounded soldier along a trench immediately after the sequence of the unidentified soldier carries him on his shoulders...

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So the hero is Tom Spencer, and the man who carried the dying soldier, was just a man who carried a wounded soldier down a trench for a bit. So there is no mystery?

Mike

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From page 167-168 How I filmed the war

" I noticed several of our wounded men lying in shell-holes in " No Man's Land." They were calling for assistance. Every time a Red Cross man attempted to get near them, a hidden German machine-gun fired. Several were killed whilst trying to bring in the wounded. The cries of one poor fellow attracted the attention of a trench-mortar man. He asked for a volunteer to go with him, and bring the poor fellow in. A man stepped forward, and together they climbed the parapet, and threaded their way through the barbed wire very slowly. Nearer and nearer they crept. We stood watching with bated breath. Would they reach him ? Yes. At last ! Then hastily binding up the injured man's wounds they picked him up between them, and with a run made for our parapet. The swine of a German blazed away at them with his machine- gun. But marvelous to relate neither of them were touched. I filmed the rescue from the start to the finish, until they passed me in the trench, a mass of perspiration. Upon the back of one was the un- conscious man he had rescued, but twenty minutes after these two had gone through hell to rescue him, the poor fellow died. During the day those two men rescued twenty men in this fashion under heavy fire. "


Burnley Express - Wednesday 22 November 1916 (British Newspaper Archives)

" At the beginning of October we published a photo, and particulars of Driver Tom Spencer, A Burnley member of the RGA whose mother now resides at Foulridge and identified him as the hero of the official Somme Battle film bringing in wounded under heavy fire. In a subsequent issue a picture journal another soldier claimed the honour, and Driver Spencer's attention being called to this he wrote home to his mother as follows " About that fellow who claims to be the original in the photograph which you have seen in the paper. I know him, and he was with me when I brought that man in. If you have a copy of that photograph you will see him holding on to the ankles of the wounded man. "

Am kind of getting it now, so the other hero, is the man in the photo Q 753 holding on the wounded soldier's ankles. Is this the man that is carrying him in the trench. I have my doubts, and if it's not him, the man in the film clip (probably brave enough) should not figure in the discussion/question?

Mike

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On 09/04/2014 at 14:55, skipman said:

Am kind of getting it now, so the other hero, is the man in the photo Q 753 holding on the wounded soldier's ankles. Is this the man that is carrying him in the trench. I have my doubts, and if it's not him, the man in the film clip (probably brave enough) should not figure in the discussion/question?

Mike

 

Edited by 9.5mm
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So the same wounded man is carried at some point by Spencer and the mystery man, and filmed by Malins. This same man was handed from Spencer to the mystery man. Where does Brooks come into it? Were Malins and Brooks at the same location on the same day, if not, surely the wounded person is a different man in each image?

Mike

Brooks and Malins were together taking photos and filming. The scene was captured by the pair in a sequence of film and photos taken at the junction of Marlborough Trench and the New Beaumont Road on July 1 after the attack had begun. White City is nearby where footage and photos had been taken earlier. (It's a position easily traceable today and in close proximity not only to White City, but obviously the Sunken Lane and the location from which the Hawthorn Mine explosion was filmed.)

After taking footage of the mine exploding and of soldiers on Hawthorn Ridge towards the crater, Malins and Brooks had then moved from Tenderloin towards the New Beaumont Road where wounded were coming in or being brought in from No Mans Land.

The first man shown is wearing a cardigan (In photograph Q753 taken by Brooks. A second photo, Q752, taken half left shows two men crawling across the road) This man carries the wounded man across the New Beaumont Road in the direction of the dressing station at Tenderloin. (Oddly the trench did not go under the road so one had to cross it exposed to the Germans). The casualty was transferred from "cardigan man" to a second man, in shirt sleeves. This is the man filmed by Malins. Shot 31.2 is the "still" showing the shirtsleeve man looking towards the camera and carrying the wounded should over his shoulders.

I've taken this information from Ghosts on the Somme.

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I've taken this information from Ghosts on the Somme.

A book I've always meant to read! But thank you Connor that certainly sorts it out for me.

Does this mean that Tom Spencer is very much in the frame now Mike?

David

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Hi David. Better brains than mine are looking at this, but to me it looks like Spencer is the man in Q753, with the man holding the wounded man's feet, the mystery hero. I'm not certain the man in the Malins clip comes into it?

It's a pity Spencer never named the other man?

Mike

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A further article in The Times today....

A leading expert in police face recognition has cast new light on a 100-year-old mystery over an unidentified First World War soldier in a film made at the Battle of the Somme after two men came forward to claim that he was their father.

In The Battle of the Somme, a 1916 film portraying the horrors of the war, a segment of footage shows a soldier with no visible regimental markings carrying a wounded comrade through the trenches, glancing at the camera as he struggles past.

Last week, Raymond Darkes, 83, from Staffordshire, said that he had no doubt whatsoever that the man was his father, Private Frederick Darkes, and provided a photograph of him in later life.

Since then, Douglas Raine, also 83, from West Sussex, has contacted The Times to claim that the unidentified soldier was his father, Private George Edwin Raine, a former miner who dug tunnels with the Durham Light Infantry.

He provided photographs of his father during the war and on his wedding day in 1918. My father told me about the incident himself, Mr Raine said. He was a miner in the Durham coalfields and was digging tunnels at the Somme.

He was carrying his comrade whod been injured by a shell that penetrated the tunnel and told me there was a camera there as he was trying to get his heavily injured comrade to the medical station.

PC Dale Nufer is the Metropolitan Polices leading face recognition expert. He is known as a super-recogniser and received a commendation last week after positively identifying more than 200 criminals from CCTV footage.

PC Nufer was shown the film and photographs and immediately ruled out Private Darkes.

His nose is a lot longer and sharper and the eyes seem different, he said. The soldier has a full ear lobe and [Darkes] doesnt he has a squarer chin and slightly higher forehead.

Examining the images of Private Raine, he said: There is more of a link and a resemblance, if you look at the straight brow, the stronger and broader nose and the solid-looking, oval shape of the face. And he has the right kind of ear lobe. I would say there is a link with this one.

Private Raines son said: I am very pleased indeed. When I first saw a documentary last year I recognised my father immediately. It was like seeing him back alive, after not having seen him for all those years.

Private Raine was born in 1894 and survived the war, dying in 1960. He moved from Co Durham to London to help to extend the Bakerloo line of the Underground.

PC Nufer, on first seeing the 1916 footage and before hearing the names of either of the two candidates, instantly remarked that the soldier reminded him of a colleague who, in what appears to be a remarkable coincidence, also has the surname Raine.

However, Douglas Raine said that he was not aware of being related to this individual.

The Imperial War Museum, which owns the footage, said that the film-makers kept no verifiable record of their subjects and declined to speculate on the soldiers identity.

post-100478-0-13542200-1397461197_thumb.

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Thanks David. I suppose if it could be proven Raine was in the right place, it's a possible, though, this wounded man, is not one that Spencer brought in then?

This could be him? 14621 Pte George E Raine DLI Enlistment 8/9/1914, entered theatre 11/9/1915. Discharge 12/1/1917 Para. 2. (bi) SWB A.Res.Cl. "W" Badge No. 134,361

Mike

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May I ask a mundane question? I have seen many mentions of this film but have never seen it. Is it available on line or as a dvd?

Old Tom

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May I ask a mundane question? I have seen many mentions of this film but have never seen it. Is it available on line or as a dvd?

Old Tom

A revamped version came out a few years ago on DVD. Currently available from Amazon for £14.46.

I'd be astonished if it's not lurking on YouTube as well

David

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The man I have marked with red arrow (without helmet) must be Tom Spencer?

Mike

aka "Cardigan Man" (Just to avoid confusion!)

David

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aka "Cardigan Man" (Just to avoid confusion!)

David

So the mystery hero will be " Cardigan man's " companion who held wounded man's feet, and not " shirtsleeves man " who was not involved in the rescue?

Mike

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So the mystery hero will be " Cardigan man's " companion who held wounded man's feet, and not " shirtsleeves man " who was not involved in the rescue?

Mike

Correct (I think!) although of course it is "shirtsleeves man's" image and identity that has really attracted interest over the years

David

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Correct (I think!) although of course it is "shirtsleeves man's" image and identity that has really attracted interest over the years

David

Only because they (wrongly) think he is the hero that rescued the man he is carrying? Why not concentrate on the identity of the wounded soldier, that might be of more interest?

Mike

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You know that had never struck me before. Of course that would be very interesting. On that day of all days though I wonder how easy it would prove?

David

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