Overseas cadets on gunnery course at Lark Hill 1917

[Moonraker]

Interesting card posted in August 1917 from Durrington Camp and addressed from the School of Gunnery at Lark Hill. (The two camps were contiguous, with the School based at Lark Hill's Number 14 camp.)

I think that the men are officers under training or, perhaps, officer cadets, as suggested by the white hat-bands. But what is of note is that most, if not all of them, including the officer in khaki, are of Asian appearance.

The cap badges appear to be the same - presumably of an artillery unit.

The card has been sent by "F.D.K." to a lady in Yorkshire, but with no comment about the men, save that "it's quite all right, we haven't forgotten to tuck our shirts in".

Informed comment invited.

(BTW, why the white overalls: to mark the men as under instruction, to protect their uniforms ...)

Moonraker

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm not convinced they are Asian. They look to me as if they are perhaps weather-beaten, but I'd not say they were Asian (possibly the chap to the left of the khaki-clad officer and slightly above is).

[Moonraker]

In this age of political correctness one has to choose one's words carefully, but some of them don't look exactly British. Certainly they contrast with the subjects of similar posed photos of the period. Note especially top row 2L and 2R and middle row 3L (from the photographer's viewpoint). I stand to be corrected about them being officer-cadets, but, if they are, again they don't look like those seen in so many photos of young British officers, and if they were their moustaches don't look right

Moonraker

[Lascar]

Thanks for this Moonraker. It's now in my collection!!

[Stoppage Drill]

I agree with Steven - most are not of Asian appearance to my eye. I don't really see why you have reached the conclusion that you have. In fact, with respect, If they have been out on the Larkhill Ranges in August (1917) then they're bound to be weatherbeaten.

The RA still use distinction colours on headgear for Instructors in Gunnery - officers wear a red cap band on their SD hat, and AIG (Assistants Instructors in Gunnery - non commissioned) wear a white cover to the SD hat (rather than a coloured cap band) to this day. Maybe in 1917 they wore a white band rather than a cap cover ?

The men are all wearing brass RA badges, so not officers - my best guess is that this is an AIG course.

( AIG - Normally referred to as Ack Eye Gee - to this day. It is a senior and cherished Warrant Officer appointment in the RA.)

[Moonraker]

Following some of the comments above, I'm inclined to admit that my initial conclusion was wrong, the more so having looked again very closely at my scan. I've got three other postcard photographs of similar groups at Lark Hill and Bulford and just a few of the members appear to have a darkish complexion - which, as Stoppage suggests, may be due to be being out on the ranges.

Moonraker

[squirrel]

The white fatigue dress would also make their complexions appear darker on a photograph of this period.

[Moonraker]

Yes, Squirrel, that thought also occurred to me when I was trying to rationalise why the subjects looked facially different to soldiers - whether officers, officer cadets or ORs - in many other posed group photos.

Moonraker

[Stoppage Drill]

Most of them look fairly mature. I would put ten bob on them being the Ack IG's at Larkhill.

This link,( WW2 reminiscences) refers to AIG's wearing a white cap band (rather than the white top worn now). Maybe the white top came in at a later date

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/69/a7146669.shtml

[tony paley]

Most of them look fairly mature. I would put ten bob on them being the Ack IG's at Larkhill.

This link,( WW2 reminiscences) refers to AIG's wearing a white cap band (rather than the white top worn now). Maybe the white top came in at a later date

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/69/a7146669.shtml

My Father was an Ack IG during WW2 and after. He wore the white hat band as per photograph. I have also seen images of RGA gunners wearing white overalls during training.

Tony P

[Stoppage Drill]

I wonder if the officer is a Master Gunner with a red cap band which doesn't show on the b/w photo ?

[battiscombe]

is there a name of who the card is posted to.. this not infrequently suggests who it was posted by..? ..

[Moonraker]

It's addressed to Miss M M Stapylton, North Farm, Letwell, Rotherham, Yorks. The card's message is signed by "F.D.K.", which suggests the lady may have been a friend; had she been a sister, that might have been helped, especially with what is perhaps an unusual spelling of the surname.

I have a card of the 73rd Gunnery Course at Lark Hill, postmarked 13 Ap or Aug 1916, with the members wearing white overalls but no white bands on their caps; some are wearing belts over the shoulders (some over the right, others over the left) that look a bit too simple to be Sam Brownes.

Another card features the 142nd Cadets Course at Lark Hill, with members dressed as in the scan in my opening post. A fourth is postmarked January 10, 1916 and shows members of an unspecified course in khaki with officers' cuff insignia; some are perched on guns.

eBay currently lists a comparable card captioned "World War one postcard No.8 Counsel 14 camp, school of instruction, Larkhill May 15th 1918 (written in blue ink on reverse)"; I suspect that "Counsel" is "Course". (I'm not bidding for it.)

see here

Moonraker

[centurion]

There are perhaps no more than four men whose physical features (as opposed to complexions) are particularly "oriental" One possible explanation might be a group from perhaps Canada with a smattering of men with some ancestry from the "First Nations"

[BullerTurner]

I wonder if the officer is a Master Gunner with a red cap band which doesn't show on the b/w photo ?

Master Gunners are not officers! If one were here now he might quip that he works for a living. The red band worn by the Gunnery Staff is a hark back to the days when all Staff officers wore red bands on their caps.

[Muerrisch]

Warrant Officers perhaps?

[Guest]

For what it is worth, two lifetimes ago I spent a few weeks on the Sennybridge ranges as a No.4 on the 105 pack Howitzer (a simply wonderful piece of kit, second only to the Bailey Bridge in design genius). After three weeks we were rather sun-tanned and all had similar complexions. Subsequently I spent 15 years working in Asia, and aside from the man second from the right (proper left) in the floor, none look Asian to me. The exception might be explained by Japanese who had exchange Officers (to use a modern term) .

As an aside - I recently stumbled on an Officer group photo of an English line infantry battalion on the eve of the war which included a Japanese Officer in its officer ranks (incidentally also sitting on the floor). The Japanese provided military support to the British in some theatres.

The British of course had Officers attached to the Japanese as well, pre-war, most notably Maj C A L Yate KOYLI who had immersed himself rather deeply in the Japanese culture. He wrote tomes on the conduct of war (Blackwood's magazine) heavily influenced by his experiences in Japan in the early 1900s. Years later in August 1914 as his battalion (2 KOLYLI) was being systematically annihilated on an exposed forward slope by the German artillery at Le Cateau, he drew his sword and led a forlorn hope at the oncoming German hordes. Unsurprisingly hardly anyone followed him. In a scene echoing the French Foreign Legion's last futile charge at Camaron, Yate miraculously managed to miss his rendezvous with death and ended up being captured, unwounded. This was turning out to be a rather bad day. Allegedly he insisted that his captors shoot him rather than suffer the indignity of being captured unwounded, something that has more resonance in Japanese culture than English culture. Thankfully the Germans saw the funny side and refused to kill him. I never believed a word of it; there are conflicting accounts suggesting he never got out of his trench before being overpowered. The British authorities, understood on dark days suc as Le Cateau one needs to get good news out there. Fast; never knowingly allowing facts to get in the way of a good story and clearly impressed with his alleged charge, the British awarded him the VC. I have always thought is actions were inextricably influenced by his apparent obsession with Japanese culture. At the very least shows provenance of liaison between the Japanese and the British pre-war. MG

[Muerrisch]

Martin there is of course a huge amount on Major Yate and his captivity and subsequent death elsewhere on the Forum ............. it may have escaped your notice.

Interesting but controversial I gather.

[Guest]

Martin there is of course a huge amount on Major Yate and his captivity and subsequent death elsewhere on the Forum ............. it may have escaped your notice.

Interesting but controversial I gather.

Yes. I have contributed in a very small way to some. His experience in Japan was important to his subsequent behaviour I believe.

Here is the photo of the South Staffs with their attached Japanese Officer.