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Identifying an insignia


Janey

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The memorial chapel in St John's Church Stockcross has carved escutcheons of regiments of our WW1 casualties. I have attached one which we cannot identify. Very grateful if anyone can identify this for me?post-101827-0-36057600-1395833277_thumb.

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the crown looks like a Ducal Crown and the monogram looks like it includes DC so could be DCLI But it is not the DCLI cap badge and the motto is that of the Order of the Garter

bill

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Thank you, Bill. All the escutcheons have the same crown on top, so I infer this was not part of the actual badge. DCLI I agree looks possible - but please what is DCLI?

Janey

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Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, but I doubt it's that, somehow - surely they would use the regimental badge.

Two things:

1. It looks like a Royal cypher, so may well represent the badge of a regiment with a Royal Colonel (e.g. 18th (Queen mary's Own) Hussars with the cypher of Her Majesty)

2. It might be helpful to see a picture of a known/identified badge to give us an idea of the "style" of the thing; that might help point us in the right direction.

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Thank you, Steven. I have just e-mailed the National Army Museum, to see if they can help, but it will take time to obtain a result, they tell me, sine they have a huge number of enquiries to work through! This carved 'escutcheon' in the church is all we have, I am afraid. We know that one of our men was Sir Richard Vincent Sutton M.C., in the Life Guards (Household Cavalry), but I cannot at present find their badge.

I shall press on and hope for a good result.

Janey

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Then I suspect it's the Life Guards - it could well be "LG" reversed and entwined.

I'm away tonight, but if you wish I'll look in theor regimental History when I get in tomorrow evening and see what information there is on Sir Richard. Gliddon's book on the Aristocracy at War might help, and I have 1925 Debrett's which will have family details if required.

Edit: in fact, having a better look I'm pretty sure it's what I think - "LG" reversed and entwined.

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To my bleary eyes the D is the top of R, C is the top of a G, with L to left and a reversed L on the right.

The loose ends top and bottom giving four letters.

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Here's a thing. Sir Richard Vincent Sutton gets one mention in the history ("The Story of the Household Cavalry, Vol III" by Sir George Arthur, Bt), where his diary is quoted in relation to an action in October 1914, which would indicate he was a pre-war officer of on the Reserve. However, he does not appear in the Roll of Honour. Looking at the CWGC site, it seem he died in service with the Machine Gun Guards. The 1st and 2nd Life Guards (Suttont was with the 1st) and Royal Horse Guards were converted in MG troops in early 1918.

Also interestingly, he died on 29th November, 1918 and is buried at Terlincthun. He also had an MC. Not specified cause of death, so may have been sickness. The Household Cavalry Museum might be able to help.

The CWGC site says he came from Brinsop Ct, Hereford; unfortunately Gliddon's book doesn't mention the family. He died without issue and was succeeded by his uncle, Arthur Edwin Sutton, of Norwood Park, Notts, who became the 7th Baronet.

It is, therefore, possible the insignia relates to the MG Guards, but my money is still on it being LG entwined and reversed.

Any other names you want information on?

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Thank you again. Am working on Richard V Sutton at present, and find(from his private papers) that his Commission in the 1st Life Guards was approved by Edward VII and signed by George VI in May 1910. He was never in reserve and the Life Guards disembarked 8 October 1914 at Zeebrugge. His service during the war I have yet to investigate - but he actually survived the war and then succumbed to influenza while still in France.

I think that you may regret offering help with another soldier - we have actually 27 others to investigate (on the Memorial Plaque in Stockcross, Berks)!

Actually anything on the 86th Machine Gun Corps and specifically Pte Albert Pothecary would be of value. Have just obtained the War diary of the Corps from Kew - but much of it is illegible! Shall have to view each page in Paint, I think, and salvage what I can.

help is being much appreciated

Janey

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that his Commission in the 1st Life Guards was ... signed by George VI

Janey

V

:thumbsup:

I wondered, because, as you probably know, the three regiments of Household Cavalry, on the outbreak of war, formed the Composite Regiment (one Squadron from each), so I thought he might have been on the Reserve and rejoined after that, but in time for the 7th Cavalry Brigade to be formed.

Regarding MGC I am afraid I know absolutely nothing, and am happy to keep it that way! Anything cavalry is worth a try, though.

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Ah, then I feel that you are just the expert to ask for help with Pte Frank Martin. The problem I have found with Internet sources is that can be contradictory. Frank Martin is variously described as' Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line' and as' no 2075 Berkshire Yeomanry'. He was awarded the 14/15 Star medal. He landed at Egypt on 21/4/1915, and died at Gallipoli 25/08/1915 - one source says that he died at sea of wounds sustained. Was he a regular soldier , or did he enlist? (Cannot find his service record). Am also puzzled since I was not aware that Cavalry were involved at Gallipoli.

Anything about the Berkshire Yeomanry would be helpful.

Best wishes Janey

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The memorial chapel in St John's Church Stockcross has carved escutcheons of regiments of our WW1 casualties. I have attached one which we cannot identify. Very grateful if anyone can identify this for me?attachicon.gifSt John's Stockcross May 2010 011.jpg

I think you might well find that it is the regimental crest of the 1st (Grenadier) Foot Guards. Their crest is always that of the sovereign's initials reversed and intertwined within the garter and surmounted by a crown styled for the contemporary monarch. As such it changed and was stylised slightly differently for each sovereign, whilst remaining essentially the same overall design. The first letters of course changed between V (Victoria), E (Edward), G (George) and so on. For a period the letter I (Imperator or Imperatrix) also appeared until after Indian independence in 1947. This design of crest is privileged and not used by any other regiment, including the Household Cavalry regiments. I enclose that used during Victoria's reign.

post-599-0-57990200-1396134913_thumb.jpg

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H Janey

Can't help with crest but can Trooper Frank Martin

Each infnafry regiment had a volume of "Soldier died" published but the point is that becasue the cavalry did not suffer the huge losses that infantry did the publication for Soldier Died "Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line" was a consolidated one for all cavalry, household cavalry and yeomanry regiments.

Frank Martin was a Territoral Force soldier who enlisted for service in September 1914 in the Berkshire Yeomanry. We know the date because of his army number. Of couse by that time the TF had been moblised so his was full time service and not just weekends and evenings

From memory Fred Marshall of the Berks Yeomanry who lived to be over 100 lived in Stockcross (but it may have been his daughter) or he may have lived in Cheively.

LEt me know if you need anything more.

Regards

Andrew

"Be You Berkshire ?"

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Thank you, Andrew. One of our problems has been to know whether a man:

- was a civilian who voluntarily enlisted

- was in the TF and enlisted or was mobilised

- was a regular soldier at the outbreak of war

- was conscripted.

(Unfortunately many of our men's service records are not available).

I did not know that the soldier's number could be used to know which. Am I correct in that conscription started in March 1916 for 18 - 41 years single men, and in May 1916 for the same age range married men? But surely one cannot assume that a man who died in 1916 or later was necessarily a conscript? Could he not have enlisted in 1915, but saw no active service until 1916? If I post the details of the men we are unsure about, with regiment and number, date of death, and whether they had the 14 or 14/15 Star, would you be kind enough to tell me which of the above is most likely?

I have looked at the many Marshall family in Stockcross register's transcript, and did not find any centenarians.

Very grateful for any help you can give us

Janey

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Hi Janey

Yes you are right in what you say about numbers and deaths.

I can help with any numbers for the Berkshire Yeomanry but would need to find experts for the other regiments. John Chapman is I beilieve on this forum and could possibly help with Royal Berks Men

Regards

Andrew

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Thank you, Andrew. Frank Martin is the only one in the Berkshire Yeomanry. I see that you are living at Sonning Common, not far from Stockcross, where I live! Shall contact John Chapman and Martin G as formerly suggested. I think I shall put our list on researching living relatives, as a long-shot!

Janey

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Thank you, Frogsmile for your personal message. I agree the crests look very similar, although we have not found any men on the memorial who were in the 1st Grenadier Foot Guards. Perhaps we need to check what we have found about our men and ensure that there are no errors. I will let you know the outcome, and thank you again

Janey

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Thank you, Frogsmile for your personal message. I agree the crests look very similar, although we have not found any men on the memorial who were in the 1st Grenadier Foot Guards. Perhaps we need to check what we have found about our men and ensure that there are no errors. I will let you know the outcome, and thank you again

Janey

I am glad to help where I can Janey and will look out for any more of your posts.

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Under most circumstances I'd not dream of disagreeing with Frogsmile on matters of uniform and insignia, but I still think it's a reversed and entwined "LG". I don't see "GR" and there's no identifier of a "V" for George V. Add to that no Grenadier on the memorial but there IS a Life Guard (a the Life Guards badge seems to be missing), and my money's on the LG option.

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Under most circumstances I'd not dream of disagreeing with Frogsmile on matters of uniform and insignia, but I still think it's a reversed and entwined "LG". I don't see "GR" and there's no identifier of a "V" for George V. Add to that no Grenadier on the memorial but there IS a Life Guard (a the Life Guards badge seems to be missing), and my money's on the LG option.

Well done Steven, you have it spot on. I had previously looked at the current cypher of the LG (see shield) and been put off by the scroll at the base and the lion and crown, but I then looked for the WW1 version and eureka! So Jane can now put that one to bed as positively ID. It makes sense too, as both the Grenadiers and Life Guards had started in the Service of Charles II and it was he who awarded the interwoven cypher style to both regiments.

post-599-0-98379000-1396649928_thumb.jpg

post-599-0-40500900-1396649937_thumb.jpg

post-599-0-67558200-1396649960_thumb.jpg

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Cheers for that. I feel all vindicated.

And here's a thing: I am currently reading Challenge of Battle (Adrian Gilbert), a rather good reassessment of the BEF in 1914, and Sir Richard Sutton is mentioned, quoting from Sir Richard Vincent Sutton, A Record Of His Life - which is recorded as being privately published, with no date. His diary is quoted in the context of his regiment's action in support of the 7th Division at Ypres. Presumably somewhere like the IWM would have a copy of this volume to inspect.

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Thanks to all - I now know that this is the cypher for the Lifeguards!! And Sir Richard Vincent Sutton was in the 1st battalion Lifeguards.

Steven, I have recently bought a copy of the book Richard Vincent Sutton: a record of his life together with extracts from his private papers. Just started reading it, and I think will be very informative. It seems to be many of his letters, his diary, and extracts from the war diary of the Lifeguards. The private papers were supplied by his mother, Lady Constance Astley, and it was edited by Wilfred Isemonger and George William Jones. I would imagine that his mother paid for its publication. It is available on Amazon, apparently recently having been re-published.

Thanks everybody for your help

Janey

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Thanks to all - I now know that this is the cypher for the Lifeguards!! And Sir Richard Vincent Sutton was in the 1st battalion Lifeguards.

Steven, I have recently bought a copy of the book Richard Vincent Sutton: a record of his life together with extracts from his private papers. Just started reading it, and I think will be very informative. It seems to be many of his letters, his diary, and extracts from the war diary of the Lifeguards. The private papers were supplied by his mother, Lady Constance Astley, and it was edited by Wilfred Isemonger and George William Jones. I would imagine that his mother paid for its publication. It is available on Amazon, apparently recently having been re-published.

Thanks everybody for your help

Janey

Thanks Janey - I might look it out.

By the way, it's NOT 1st Battalion. Cavalry wouldn't use anything so infra dig as Battalion. They were the 1st Life Guards, a separate regiment from the 2nd Life Guards.

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