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N White

A few of the other bayonets

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N White

Since there seems to have been a lot of bayonet threads recently, I thought I would share a few that haven't been mentioned, that aren't seen so often.

First up a Winchester bayonet for the Russian Musket. Condition wise, I would guess it never left the States, it is unmarked except for the Winchester stamp on the crossguard, and "64". Probably my second best catch, it followed me home for the princely sum of $25 USD.

Next to follow, a French 1892 bayonet for Berthier carbine. Not so special, even the first pattern like this one. Except this one is within the first year or so of production, when they marked the spines like older models. This was discontinued very quickly.

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post-38182-0-86215700-1395694156_thumb.j

post-38182-0-81541200-1395694175_thumb.j

post-38182-0-09628400-1395694272_thumb.j

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shippingsteel

Very, very nice - especially the early Berthier.! :thumbsup: I too am a fan of such things ... such things of which you speak. (haha who would have guessed) :whistle:

Here's a couple of profile shots of mine. Firstly the Russian M1915 which attached to the Russian variant of the Winchester M1895 - the "Vintovka Vinchestya obr.1915".

post-52604-0-40092600-1395704089_thumb.j

And then the "Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892" for the Berthier carbine. This is the second pattern, still with the composite grips, but has a slightly extended muzzle-ring.

post-52604-0-38311600-1395704069_thumb.j

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N White

Two more, an Austrian 1895 dress bayonet, with quillion and loop for bayonet knot. Unmarked, more wear on the pommel than anywhere else.

Secondly, back on the subject of US exports, a Berthier rifle bayonet. As with the carbine bayonet, unremarkable but for one thing. This one is a Remington, and unmarked by the French.

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post-38182-0-08683600-1395709166_thumb.j

post-38182-0-69127200-1395709195_thumb.j

post-38182-0-85214900-1395709210_thumb.j

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trajan

Very nice finds, both of you! But if we were in a bayonet beauty and rarity contest, I think Nwhite's Winchester is first past the post! Exceptional condition, scabbard to boot as well - and we will not mention the bargain price... :doh: (I have never seen anything over here for less than USD 30, what used to be the average price for a reasonable ersatz...)

I like the Berthier's also, :thumbsup: but have never seen any of these in Turkey, the only one I have coming from a shop in Damascus I used to visit on a fairly frequent basis (and the stamps in my passport are now a bit bothersome when flying into or out of the UK! :mellow: ). The owner of that shop had two, the other being a scabbard-less example, and these two were the only Berthiers I have ever seen in Syria (Lebels and 98/05's are much more common there). I was planning to be back in Damascus in March 2011 and probably would have got the second one then, but then the rebellion that became a civil war started...

Trajan

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shippingsteel

Staying on the theme of the lesser seen US export bayonets, here are a couple more. (The majority of my file photos are taken without scabbards)

Firstly the Remington made bayonet for the Rolling Block rifle used by the French during the war. They called it the "Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1914".

post-52604-0-22054500-1395814843_thumb.j

Then we have the Hopkins & Allen bayonet that was produced for the Belgian M1889 Mauser. Known as the "Bajonet voor het Mausergeweer 1889".

post-52604-0-45508500-1395871786_thumb.j

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trajan

Two very nice specimens there Shippingsteel!

Does the Remington have the J Serial number on the crossguard?

Incidentally IIRC most of the other Remington 1914 bayonets I have seen photographs of have a slightly narrower fuller with more rounded ends than the those with the wider square-ended fullers, like yours. I have no idea at all what this means or which type is more common - or even if it is just a illusion of photography! Any ideas?

That apart, I have seen these bayonets referenced in French works as "Sabre-Baïonnette modèle Remington No 5 dit "modèle 1914"". I'll make a guess that this means Remington rifle model no 5, but I don't know and would appreciate clarification!

TTFN,

Trajan

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trajan

Here are two of the images I have collected from the internet for these Remington 1914's - and I freely admit that not actually having one of these bayonets then I have relied on the owners/sellers's identifications of them as Remington 1914's! But you will see (I hope) how the fullers seem to come in two varieties, narrow and round ended, and wide (or wider) and square ended. That could be a photographic illusion - I simply don't know.

Anyway, here is a 'narrow and rounded' example

post-69449-0-60581700-1395849592_thumb.j

And here is a 'wide and squared' example'

post-69449-0-11354700-1395850092_thumb.j

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trajan

Then we have the Hopkins & Allen bayonet that was produced for the Belgian M1889 Mauser. Known as the "Bajonet voor het Mausergeweer 1889".

attachicon.gif200.JPG

Hi Shippingsteel,

I am really not trying to pick holes, but I always try to improve my knowledge by following up on things wherever possible, as you always suggest and insist on, and so I must ask - are you sure on this one?

Sommewalker (see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=192861&hl= ) introduced us all to this nice Belgian bayonet site - http://www.depatrouilleurs.be/Bewapening.html

And what they show as a Hopkins and Allen 1889 has the pushbutton on the other (left) side of the pommel... See that Belgian page and their image http://www.depatrouilleurs.be/images/hopkins.jpg reproduced here below

post-69449-0-69799300-1395851828_thumb.j

See also this one on Otto's page, with makers mark on the left ricasso and pushbutton there also...

post-69449-0-88065200-1395852886_thumb.j

post-69449-0-78196500-1395853046_thumb.j

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shippingsteel

Oh well, glad to see someone is awake.! Yes you caught me out there, in my time-constrained and distracted world, I momentarily thought flipping the image was a good idea. :blush:

I now realise the photo was taken pointing the opposite way for a reason ... D'oh.!! Yes its hard to get them sitting right with that stupid press stud getting in the way underneath. :lol:

So when I posted the pics my random brain wave said "why not flip the image around - it will look better" ... yeah hmmm, well I forgot about that silly press stud didn't I (you got me)

Apart from that mistake, I do know what I've got because it's actually written on the sides of these bayonets. Your first example is a Brazilian M1908, while the second is very worn.

Cheers, S>S

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N White

More France!

Up first a Chassepot, captured by the Germans, with a frogstud modified to their style. Unlike some that were cut to fit the Gew 88, or other guns, this one was not. This may actually be a Franco Prussian war capture, as an 1869 dated example, but no telling when it left German possesion.

Next, a French Gras, with a shaved pommel, and thinned muzzle ring, to fit a Gew 88. Some of these have an extension on the press stud, and only a mildly thinned muzzlering, but this one has had more removed than most I have seen.

post-38182-0-87311000-1395877256_thumb.j

post-38182-0-87208400-1395877274_thumb.j

Edited by N White

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trajan

Oh well, glad to see someone is awake.! Yes you caught me out there, in my time-constrained and distracted world, I momentarily thought flipping the image was a good idea. :blush: ...Your first example is a Brazilian M1908, while the second is very worn.

Phew....!!! Thanks for the correction! I was getting worried!!!

By 'first example' do you mean the one I posted from the Belgian web-site above? The one with what I think is a Remington 1914 scabbard? I just checked Janzen, which happened to be in my office, and he shows the Brazilian 1908 as having the pushbutton on the right side, a clearance hole behind the crossguard (they are German-made), and in any case are short knife bayonets not long sword versions. I then double-checked with the first web-site that came to mind, Worldbayonets, and they show this a Brazilian 1908, with a blade length of 29.8 cm (11.75 ins) and overall length of 43.2 cm (17 ins)

TTFN,

Trajan

PS: Here is the photo of the Brazilian 1908 from WorldBayonets

post-69449-0-35401400-1395905005_thumb.j

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trajan

Next, a French Gras, with a shaved pommel, and thinned muzzle ring, to fit a Gew 88. Some of these have an extension on the press stud, and only a mildly thinned muzzlering, but this one has had more removed than most I have seen.

More nice bayonets!

And indeed, that is some pretty remarkable thinning involved on that Gras there! Has this one got the 'bent blade' found on these ones adapted to fit the Gew. 88, as referred to on another website?

Trajan

EDIT: added reference to Gew.88.

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shippingsteel

By 'first example' do you mean the one I posted from the Belgian web-site above?

In regard to the Remington Mle.1914 they all have wide and square fullers. Your example photo in post #7 is a Brazilian M1908 (which adds to the confusion)

Cheers, S>S

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trajan

In regard to the Remington Mle.1914 they all have wide and square fullers. Your example photo in post #7 is a Brazilian M1908 (which adds to the confusion)

Cheers, S>S

Thanks SS - like I said, I was relying on the owner/seller identifications! But the one in post no.7 you identify as such is a long sword bayonet, isn't it? The seller gives an overall length of 20 1/4" and the blade as 15". So, in which case it is not a Brazilian M 1908 but a M1908/34 bayonet, as the M 1908 is certainly a short bayonet. As I understand it, the short 1908 fitted onto a rifle that was longer than the one Brazil commissioned in 1934, which is why they had these longer ones made to fit a shorter rifle. But, always happy to be corrected!

We live and learn! :thumbsup:

Trajan

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shippingsteel

OK so here is another one for all those bayonet identification experts out there. :whistle: No clues provided - just that these were definitely used in the GW.

post-52604-0-80278900-1395921982_thumb.j

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Mike_H

Portuguese Model 1886 for the 8 mm Kropatschek rifle. These were usually made by Steyr, I haven't seen one by any other maker.

Mike

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shippingsteel

Ha ha Mike.! When I saw you lurking on the members list I thought you might be tempted .... as I already knew you'd be all over this one. Too easy for you.! :thumbsup:

Oh well, now I'm just going to have to go back to the drawing board and see what else I can dig out. Darn it, I'm pretty sure it will involve lots more cleaning too. :unsure:

But to be totally pedantic, I believe they were actually termed the M1885 (made for the discontinued Guedes rifle) but were used on the M1886 Kropatschek rifle ... :hypocrite:

Cheers, S>S

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shippingsteel

Here is another candidate for the bayonet identification stakes ... but I doubt this one will survive till morning either, I don't like its chances. :innocent:

post-52604-0-36383500-1395926000_thumb.j

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Khaki

More France!

Up first a Chassepot, captured by the Germans, with a frogstud modified to their style. Unlike some that were cut to fit the Gew 88, or other guns, this one was not. This may actually be a Franco Prussian war capture, as an 1869 dated example, but no telling when it left German possesion.

Next, a French Gras, with a shaved pommel, and thinned muzzle ring, to fit a Gew 88. Some of these have an extension on the press stud, and only a mildly thinned muzzlering, but this one has had more removed than most I have seen.

Very interesting, how do you classify the capture/conversions in a/your collection ?

khaki

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Mike_H

SS

As there are no other takers for your post #18 I'll say its a Turkish M1887 for the 1887 9.5mm Mauser.

Although the Turks cancelled the contract and changed to the M1890 Mauser some 220000 1887 rifles were delivered and presumably as many bayonets. Some of the undelivered part of the contract came out of the manufacturer's storage in WW1 and ended up with the Wurttemburg Landsturm.

Mike

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N White

More nice bayonets!

And indeed, that is some pretty remarkable thinning involved on that Gras there! Has this one got the 'bent blade' found on these ones adapted to fit the Gew. 88, as referred to on another website?

Trajan

EDIT: added reference to Gew.88.

I don't see a bend in the blade, and below with it back to back with another, unmodified (albeit rare maker) example, the blades seem to mirror each other. Also below, a closer look at the lengths they went to, including chopping off part of the press stud for clearance.

I believe with the super cutout on the ring, this one should mount straight, and thus not need the bend. Unfortunately, a Gew 88 to test it on hasn't made my acquaintance yet. Edit to add- when I came across it a few years ago, another forum IDed it for the 88. Apparently this type of conversion was less common than the bent blade one. They even shortened the tab of the press stud inside the slot. Perhaps the other way was faster.

Khaki, as far as classifying them, I'm not sure what you mean.

post-38182-0-87146100-1395968409_thumb.j

post-38182-0-21617600-1395968435_thumb.j

Edited by N White

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Khaki

Do you classify them as French, German or captured weapon modifications, I have a Chassepot with a modified scabbard although it is French I tend to consider it a German Great War weapon.

khaki

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shippingsteel

Very interesting, how do you classify the capture/conversions in a/your collection ?

Khaki, I think what you mean is how you would class the modified/converted bayonets in an overall collection, whilst they were originally French issue before capture.

Once they have been modified or converted to suit a German issue rifle or another type of "beute gewehr", then they become known as the German "ersatz" bayonet.

Cheers, S>S

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Khaki

Yep, that's it.

khaki

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trajan

Here is another candidate for the bayonet identification stakes ... but I doubt this one will survive till morning either, I don't like its chances. :innocent:

Well, it would have been unfair of me to enter the game :hypocrite: , seeing how my flat contains a stack of them, but unfortunately only one with a scabbard... :(

Mind you, one of these is a rather interesting one, as it has been re-gripped and converted into a 'NCO' sidearm, akin to those shortened and re-gripped Martini-Peabody conversions, but not as fancy. The marks have been scrubbed-off, which suggests to me that IF it is a military conversion, then it was done post 1923. I still haven't cleaned the thing yet, so no photograph until the summer (vacation) time, which is my only chance to work on bayonet tidying-up!

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