trajan Posted 12 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2016 48 minutes ago, wjones74 said: Hi , Thought I would share mine. 13 Husaren Regiment King Humbert von Italien . Undated but I believe it to be 15 . I have just the one example of a Heller/Erfurt S.84/98 n.A.m.S. like yours and it seems that all those 'maker-marked' that way are 'mit saege'. But yours is nicer in being unit-marked with what looks to be a matching unit-marked scabbard as well! There are a fair few Husar-marked revolvers and pistols around, but not that many bayonets. I can't see a number after the '52' - is that the case? Generally speaking, one would expect a marking formatted along the lines of 'XX.H.y.zz', where the 'y' and 'z' would indicate the Eskadron and the Waffe numbers respectively, and the consensus seems to be that one like yours would be a 'Staff' weapon - note that bayonets (and other weapons) were numbered in sequence as issued to the unit section, so this would be the '52nd' issued for the use of the regimental staff. A '1915' date is certainly likely. The production of the 84/98 n.A. was urgently ordered in the autumn of 1914 for cavalry use specifically and they began to be distributed in early 1915, and while 1915 dated examples are known to exist, the consensus seems to be that such was the urgency of the order (which also gave rise to the Ersatz bayonets) that most of the undated examples were made in that rush to re-arm the cavalry. As it is, a 1915 date is also supported by the presence of the unit-marking as the practice had almost entirely ended by the summer of 1915 (which is why so few 1915 and later 98/05 n.A.'s are unit-marked). Thinking aloud - it has always been a bit of a mystery why the Ersatz were not year and ruler marked, and I do wonder if there is a connection there. That aside, interesting to note that various forms of Ersatz were already in service by the end of 1914, but the 84/98's n.A.'s are strictly 1915+. A nice bayonet and a nice marking so thanks for sharing - and enjoy! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjones74 Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Thanks Julian , on closer inspection it is actually "32" not that it changes much . so 13.H.32. Sorry to be a bit naïve but by staff , would that mean clerical .logistics etc ? I personally prefer these bayonets over the 98/05s (not by much admittedly) and find them grossly undervalued in the UK ,as I'm sure you are aware you don't get much change out of £300 for a 98/05 mit saege retail , this was under a third of that on a well known bayonet retailer over here ! quite happy to pay that all day long for one of these! Regards Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 13 July , 2016 8 hours ago, wjones74 said: Thanks Julian , on closer inspection it is actually "32" not that it changes much . so 13.H.32. Sorry to be a bit naïve but by staff , would that mean clerical .logistics etc ?... Hi Will, I thought it was 32 initially but then convinced myself it was 52! There you go! Regimental staff... These are the guys who keep the machine running, so yes, clerical, transport, weapons, clothing, etc., and on paper in wartime, a German Regimental staff would consist of - as I understand it - three 'staff' officers; a transport officer; and around 54 or so other ranks. Yes, by comparison with the 98/05, the 84/98 is 'undervalued' in the UK - or, rather, the 98/05 has become overvalued because of the centenary. The 98/05 with a sawback was also the more popular bring-back trophy and along with memories of the "despicable Hun bayonetting Belgian nurses and children", it seems to have become fixed in the national psyche as the archetypal German bayonet! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 July , 2016 Share Posted 15 July , 2016 Lovely bayonet Will. Always tough to find a unit-marked sawback, especially with a less usual marking like yours. Sounds like a pretty good price too - good result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjones74 Posted 15 July , 2016 Share Posted 15 July , 2016 Thank you for the kind comments . just slightly off thread , due to the unfolding tensions in Turkey in particular Ankara ! Julian I hope you and your family stay safe , all the best Regards Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 16 July , 2016 Share Posted 16 July , 2016 Yes I hope all is well Julian - stay safe. Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2016 Thanks guys... It has been a very noisy night as we are on the direct west-east flight path over the city, and are located between the main Jandarma, tank, and helicopter bases, but we are outside the Military HQ district... Last bombs I heard were at about 02:40 and we managed to get back to some sleep after about 03:15, albeit periodically broken by low-flying jets and the odd sonic boom. Ah well, "Keep calm and carry on" will have to be the order of the day, although apparently still some gunfire in the city. PS: And a new wave of low-flying jets just started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandy hall Posted 16 July , 2016 Share Posted 16 July , 2016 Good to see you posting on the forum this morning, stay safe. Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beestonboxer Posted 15 August , 2016 Share Posted 15 August , 2016 (edited) Looking for a little help to firstly confirm the bayonet is what I believe it is a 84/98 1st pattern ? and what are the regimental markings, not matching unfortunately but still would like it confirmed i have taken a look through the post but unless I am mistaken none identical to these markings. Thanks Tim Edited 15 August , 2016 by beestonboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gew88/05 Posted 15 August , 2016 Share Posted 15 August , 2016 Hard to read the regimental number, it appears to be a worn "4" so, if that is the case, the bayonet is marked "4.R.R.109" so it may well be weapon #109. 4th Reserve Infantry regiment". The scabbard's marking, by form, is a slightly later marking - "54.R.E.1.69." translating to "Weapon number 69, of the First Company of the Ersatz Bataillon of the 54th Infantry Regiment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beestonboxer Posted 15 August , 2016 Share Posted 15 August , 2016 Many thanks for explaining this to me. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2016 20 hours ago, beestonboxer said: Looking for a little help to firstly confirm the bayonet is what I believe it is a 84/98 1st pattern ? and what are the regimental markings, not matching unfortunately but still would like it confirmed i have taken a look through the post but unless I am mistaken none identical to these markings. Thanks Tim 'Tis indeed an 84/98 a.A., or 1st pattern, that is to say one converted from a 71/84 n.A., with the long fullers. The difficulty in seeing what the first number is on the crossguard is because when the muzzle ring on the original 71/84 bayonet was removed they often 'rounded-off' the top of the new version crossguard. This is the clue to this unit number being an original one to the bayonet as first issued, but it does mean that the bayonet may have originally been issued to a regiment numbered 14, 24, 34, etc... I know I have posted something somewhere on this and will try to find it later...!!! A very nice find, though, especially with an original leather scabbard. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 11 September , 2016 Share Posted 11 September , 2016 A few new ones... 84/98nA (W15 Erfurt) with rare marking to the Bavarian 3rd Pionier-Bataillon. s98nA (W06 WKC) with cancelled out marking to the 144th Infanterie Regiment and then reissued to the 213th Reserve Infanterie Regiment which was formed after mobilization in August 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2016 3 hours ago, motojosh said: A few new ones... 84/98nA (W15 Erfurt) with rare marking to the Bavarian 3rd Pionier-Bataillon. s98nA (W06 WKC) with cancelled out marking to the 144th Infanterie Regiment and then reissued to the 213th Reserve Infanterie Regiment which was formed after mobilization in August 1914. A nice pair there! For what it's worth, although my listing of unit marks is far from complete, I have so far noted the following for the Bay.3.Pion.-Batail.: B.3.P.1.8 - S.98/02 B.3.P.2.78. - S.84/98 B.3.P.3.128. - 98/02 B.3.P.3.189 - S.98/05 aA mS The S.98 is also interesting as I can' t remember off-hand seeing many (if any!) that have cancellation and re-issue marks. My unit listings, by the way, is very much a work in progress, when I have an hour or so plus the inclination, to get down to it. Noll was an obvious starting point, but I am now in the low 2,000's and still climbing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2016 (edited) Here's a couple I picked up recently - both S.71/84's, in fact my first examples of these! The first is a real rarity in its own right. A W/87 P.D.Luneschloss, and so one of the first made by a rare maker: I have listed nine or so by them, roughly equal numbers of W/87 and W//88, this one marked for the "29.R.R.353". Rekruten-depot examples are also not that common, so this makes a mark in another way! I have one other PDLuneschloss listed for the same unit and also the same year - "29.R.13.47", Carter II.13 The second is a W/1888 by WKC, the most common maker and year, and is "31.R.5.175". The only other example I know off for that unit is: "31.R.M.G.52", also WKC, C.II.13 Julian Edited 12 September , 2016 by trajan PS: Trying to delete an extra not-need photograph and to correct year dates for PDLuneschloss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1 Posted 2 January , 2017 Share Posted 2 January , 2017 I would love to add to this great thread. I have a question regarding to the unit mark on this 71/84. It's to the 123 R.E. In this thread R.E. is referred to as ersatz battalion or a training regiment. Does anyone know which this one represents? Thanks in advance! Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, rick1 said: I have a question regarding to the unit mark on this 71/84. It's to the 123 R.E. In this thread R.E. is referred to as ersatz battalion or a training regiment. Does anyone know which this one represents? Welcome! Glad that you are enjoying it! And that looks to be a very nice piece - who is the maker and what is the year? I'll take a guess - Coppel probably but WK&C possible, and it is W/87 or W/88? As you probably know, most of the original 71/84 a.A. were either converted to n.A., or were recycled, so a nice thing to have, especially with a matching original scabbard which it fits nicely (the leather has shrunk for many of the surviving specimens and so no snug-fit...) Yes, it is for the first Kompagnie (weapon no.225) of the 'Ersatz' or 'training bataillon' of the Grenadier-Regiment König Karl (5. Württembergisches) Nr. 123 - there is a brief and perhaps not entirely reliable history of the 'parent' unit at: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Gren.R_123 which notes that the Ersatz-Bataillon was raised in Ulm, and there is some original documentation for the unit in the Landesarchivs Baden-Württemberg. I don't have time to follow it up but it looks like the Ersatz-Bataillon followed the parent unit in its war-time activities. I do have a few other unit-marked bayonets for the parent regiment on my list, but the only other ones to the Erstaz bataillon I know off are on 98 n.A.'s... Julian Edited 2 January , 2017 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1 Posted 2 January , 2017 Share Posted 2 January , 2017 Thanks Julian! You are correct Coppel w/88. So wartime this unit followed the 123rd as a ersatz regiment or stayed training for the parent? Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2017 18 minutes ago, rick1 said: Thanks Julian! You are correct Coppel w/88. So wartime this unit followed the 123rd as a ersatz regiment or stayed training for the parent? Rick A(n educated) guess based on what I have listed for regiments 119-125! I'd have search for further information and can't do that now, but it seems that they followed the parent unit around from the start of WW1. Th training role was taken over by, I think the Recruiting depots but I'd have to check that also. The German web-page lists the locations of the parent unit in chronological order, but as others wiser than me have observed, the web-site is not always 100% correct on its listing of the whens and wheres of individual units! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 2 January , 2017 Share Posted 2 January , 2017 Hello! The Ersatz-Btl./Inf.Rgt.123 was raised in Ulm in august 2, 1914 as an immobile unit. (the recruit-depots 1917 in Münsingen) Early in august they gave two companies to Brigade-Ersatz-Bataillon 53. In june 1916 they gave one company to Inf.Rgt.Ulm as 2nd. company. The bataillon conisted 1916: three Ers.comp.,one convalescent company and twi recruit-depots In may 1918: two Ersatz- and two garrisson-companies, one convalescent company and on erecruit-depot In january 1918 a economy company was raised as Ers.-unit for württemberg economy units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1 Posted 2 January , 2017 Share Posted 2 January , 2017 Thanks guys! Does this mean the marking happened august 1914 or after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gew88/05 Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 (edited) It is a pre-War marking. In peace time, the Ersatz battalion was used for training new recruits who were coming on line to serve in place of men ending their period in service. Edited 3 January , 2017 by Gew88/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Gew88/05 said: It is a pre-War marking. In peace time, the Ersatz battalion was used for training new recruits who were coming on line to serve in place of men ending their period in service. Hello Gew88/05 Unfortunately you are wrong. The imperial army didn´t had any training units in the peace-time line (or guard) -infantry regiments! Each regiment consists of "only" three bataillons with four companies each! Like I wrote, the Ers.Btl. (especially for 123, was raised in august 1914, at the beginning of the war). This system changed in the Weimar era. Since january 1921 an infantry regiment consisted of: I.Btl. (1.-3. comp., 4.(MG) comp. II.Btl. (5.-7. comp., 8.(MG) comp. III.Btl. (9.-11. comp., 12.(MG) comp. 13.(MW) comp. (MW=Minenwerfer=Trench mortars) Erg.Btl. (14.-16. Erg. comp.) Erg. Btl./Comp. = Ergänzungsbataillon or Kompanie (complement or recruiting-bataillon/company) In 1934 the Erg.Btl. were changed into Ausb.Btl. (Ausbildungsbataillon) = Training bataillon In 1936 the Ausb.Btl. were changed in Ergänzungsbataillone again. Ersatz-, Ergänzungs-, Ausbildungs- mean the same. Each of them are training units So this bayo has a war-stamp! Edited 3 January , 2017 by The Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2017 Correct me if I am wrong Andy - weren't the August and late 1914 Ersatz Bataillons made up of men at the regiment's home base, and at first contained those men who had most recently completed their military service? Their character changing as the war progressed to receive men from the Recruiting depots for further pre-combat training and/or as a reserve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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