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trajan

German Unit Bayonet Markings

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trajan

... but after mid-1915 or so I think many Bavarian bayonets were stamped W for Wilhelm of Prussia following an order that the Prussian war ministry would assume control of all bayonet orders. I'll have to check that also when I get back later this week.

And I was wrong there as Bavaria was still getting bayonets with the 'L' cypher in 1918...

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Michael Haselgrove

Julian,

Here's another for your database. A unit marked Bavarian S71/84 aA with matching scabbard. I have a non-matching unit marked Prussian S71/84 but have been looking for one with matching unit marking for some time and this came up. Not in the best condition as it has been stored somewhere damp and has pitting on one side.

Anyway, I hope you can see all the details from my photographs. In case not, the marking is B.7.R.14.199. There is a five figure serial number on the opposite side of the crossguard but the pitting means it is illegible.

Regards,

Michael.

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trajan

Here's another for your database. A unit marked Bavarian S71/84 aA with matching scabbard. I have a non-matching unit marked Prussian S71/84 but have been looking for one with matching unit marking for some time and this came up. Not in the best condition as it has been stored somewhere damp and has pitting on one side. ...

Thanks - and that is a nice piece MIchael, whether pitted or not, as it has those good clear markings.

Do you have Carter vol II? If not then you might like to know that SIMSON examples are really not that common - of the 60+ examples of 71/84's Carter recorded for Bavaria, one only was a SIMSON, and like yours, it is an L/88 - but a n.A., not an a.A. That one is unit-marked "B.4.R.R.2.200", and the only other 71/84's he records for the Inf-Reg.Nr.7 are a Soemmerada n.A. mit Sage, L/91, "B.7.R.3.3.", but previously marked "B.6.R.R"; and a Coppel n.A.m.S, O/97, "B.7.R.R.6.135". Back to SIMSON, though, Carter gives one other example only of a 71/84, an a.A., W/88, "11.J.M.G.55".

Those markings on the other side of the crossguard. Apparently, again according to Carter, these are a "present on most Bavarian bayonets", and he lists examples on 71/84's from '7298' up to and including '93890', but their purpose / function is unknown.

Best wishes,

Julian

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Michael Haselgrove

Julian,

Thanks for your reply. You are right - the markings are stamped very clearly. As far as the regimental marking on my bayonet is concerned I failed to check the section on bayonets mS and note the B.7.R. marking there. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, I do have Carter Vol.11. In fact, if you look at the acknowledgements my very small contribution is acknowledged. I am still amazed at how Anthony Carter managed to accumulate so much information. His books are invaluable as far as I am concerned.

Regards,

Michael.

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trajan

... Yes, I do have Carter Vol.11. In fact, if you look at the acknowledgements my very small contribution is acknowledged. I am still amazed at how Anthony Carter managed to accumulate so much information. His books are invaluable as far as I am concerned.

On the first point, well, yes, there, on p.4... :blush: My only excuse for drawing your attention to the said volume being that I have gotten used to many on GWF not having any of the Carter series... I should have guessed from the quality of what you have shown that you probably have a library to match... And there was I thinking of offering you my spare copy of vol II - a second edition, true, and the photographs are not reproduced so well, but even so, not an easy work to come by...

Carter's works are, indeed, invaluable... It took me a while to get the full set of Carter volumes - and they cost me several bayonets'-worth! - but I am so glad that I did because they are essential for this 'hobby'. True, some parts of each volume need updating: I have, for example, found a document he did not seem to be aware of, ordering Bavarian cavalry units to be supplied with S.14's, and then to exchange these for Ersatz bayonets when those became available; and it is frustrating and annoying that he never properly referenced some of his sources: but again, I have managed to track down the Archive references and even copies thereof for a few of these.

I would guess that the chances of there being another Carter no longer exist. He was evidently in a unique position, being in trade, to see what there was and had developed such a reputation that people willingly exchanged information with him and he clearly returned the favour. How he remembered it all I don't know, but I have been in brief contact with somebody who has hinted he is the owner of Carter's original files and papers and I would love to see those...!

Best,

Julian

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jscott

Hi all

I thought I would post some photos of a few Bavarian marked bayonets in my collection. One or two of these may have featured earlier in this thread, but I thought it might be interesting to put up a photo of them as a group.

The first bayonet is marked to the Bayerisches Infanterie-Lieb-Regiment (Bavarian Royal Bodyguard). I originally thought the "BL" marking was for a Bavarian Landwehr unit, but Jeff Noll's book pretty clearly differentiates between the two, with Bavarian Landwehr markings following a "B.-.L." format. The "BL" marking is also used for the Bayerisches Luft battalion - but I suspect its very unlikely that a s98 bayonet would have been used by this unit.

The second is an ersatz bayonet with quite an unusual marking to the 1st Royal Bavarian IR ("Konig"). I can only imagine that this marking was applied in haste early in the war when the ersatz bayonets were being manufactured and issued.

The remainder of the bayonets follow the more standard format of marking although interestingly 3 of them are marked to either the Bavarian 5th IR or the Bavarian 5th RIR. I don't know why there is a such a concentration of bayonets marked to this regiment - they seem to be prolific in the reference books that I own as well.

Anyway, hope this contribution keeps this thread going - its a great reference!

Cheers, Jonathan

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trajan

Hi all

I thought I would post some photos of a few Bavarian marked bayonets in my collection. One or two of these may have featured earlier in this thread, but I thought it might be interesting to put up a photo of them as a group.

The first bayonet is marked to the Bayerisches Infanterie-Lieb-Regiment (Bavarian Royal Bodyguard). I originally thought the "BL" marking was for a Bavarian Landwehr unit, but Jeff Noll's book pretty clearly differentiates between the two, with Bavarian Landwehr markings following a "B.-.L." format. The "BL" marking is also used for the Bayerisches Luft battalion - but I suspect its very unlikely that a s98 bayonet would have been used by this unit.

The second is an ersatz bayonet with quite an unusual marking to the 1st Royal Bavarian IR ("Konig"). I can only imagine that this marking was applied in haste early in the war when the ersatz bayonets were being manufactured and issued.

The remainder of the bayonets follow the more standard format of marking although interestingly 3 of them are marked to either the Bavarian 5th IR or the Bavarian 5th RIR. I don't know why there is a such a concentration of bayonets marked to this regiment - they seem to be prolific in the reference books that I own as well.

Anyway, hope this contribution keeps this thread going - its a great reference!

Cheers, Jonathan

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A very nice set there! And perhaps not a coincidence on the IR 5 numbers: I haven't done anything with my unit-marking lists since May, but I have no less than 19 for IR 5, and the next closest in terms of unit-marked bayonets is IR 11 with 10, the remainder being represented by (usually) five or so at the most. By contrast I have only two marked for RIR 5, but quite a few more for other RIR.

Your Erstaz 'B.1.3.3.' is still the only Ersatz I have recorded for that unit, but of the 19 total for the IR 5, six of these are Ersatz. The earliest date that I have for the issue of metal Erstaz, BTW, is September / October 1914.

Incidentally, are all of these regular ones with the Bavarian royal cipher? At least two of the IR 5 ones I have recorded are Prussian-marked...

Julian

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jscott

Hi Trajan

Yes the 98/05 is Prussian (Luneschloss W15), but the 98s all have the Bavarian cypher.

Cheers, Jonathan

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Michael Haselgrove

Jonathan,

Thanks for showing yet more of your collection. As always, very interesting. I have only two S98 bayonets in my collection. One is marked C.G. Haenel L14 but is not unit marked. However, it is in a scabbard marked B.7.R.4.56. I attach a couple of photos in case they are of interest.

Regards,

Michael.

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motojosh

The first bayonet is marked to the Bayerisches Infanterie-Lieb-Regiment (Bavarian Royal Bodyguard). I originally thought the "BL" marking was for a Bavarian Landwehr unit, but Jeff Noll's book pretty clearly differentiates between the two, with Bavarian Landwehr markings following a "B.-.L." format. The "BL" marking is also used for the Bayerisches Luft battalion - but I suspect its very unlikely that a s98 bayonet would have been used by this unit.

The second is an ersatz bayonet with quite an unusual marking to the 1st Royal Bavarian IR ("Konig"). I can only imagine that this marking was applied in haste early in the war when the ersatz bayonets were being manufactured and issued.

Very nice examples, particularly the ersatz.

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jscott

Thats a lovely s98 bayonet Michael - sorry for the delay - I've only just revisited this thread. A nice Bavarian marking and a very late production date. I have a lot of s98s and only one dated 1914. The B7 marked 71/84 bayonet above is also very nice - do you have a particular interest in the 7th Bavarian IR / 7th Bavarian RIR or is it just coincidence?

 

To keep this excellent thread rolling I thought I would post a photo of a 98/05 bayonet (W17) that I recently acquired with some nice markings to the 22nd Field Artillery Regiment. I've run into some issues with my research into this unit - apparently they joined the 200th Infantry Division, but I have been able to find very little information on that formation online. If anyone has any information I'd be very appreciative!

 

cheers, Jonathan

 

 

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Gew88/05

Very nice addition to an excellent thread Jonathan.  For information on the 200th Infantry Division, see The Histories of Two Hundred and Fifty One Divisions of the German Army Which Participated in the War (1914 - 1918) at:

 

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924027835317#page/n5/mode/2up

 

This is an excellent history compiled in 1919 by the Intelligence Section of the General Staff of the American Expeditionary Force.  It is easier to use as a book (available at Amazon) but the online version is quite usable, just a little cumbersome.

 

 

Edited by Gew88/05

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trajan
On 11/28/2015 at 22:16, Michael Haselgrove said:

... However, it is in a scabbard marked B.7.R.4.56. ...

 

Michael, I missed this one somehow!

 

You probably know, but for others who may not, this will be a post-January 1909 type marking, as introduced by Prussia with DVE Nr.185: Vorschrift uber das Stempeln der Handwaffen (H.Stp.V) von 28. Januar 1909, in which the script 'R' stands for Reserve. However, as this is a Bavarian unit marking, then it is a post-1910 marking, as Bavaria did not begin to follow the Prussian DVE 185 system until the publication of their DV Nr.448 Vorschrift uber das Stempeln der Handwaffen (H.Stp.V): Nach der gleichnamigen preussischen Vorschrift, in that year.

 

Julian

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trajan
22 hours ago, jscott said:

... a 98/05 bayonet (W17) that I recently acquired with some nice markings to the 22nd Field Artillery Regiment.

 

This is an odd one... There are at least two sets of markings here which need some analysis, but just for starters, I am pretty certain it is not 2. Westfälisches Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 22: the correct format for that on a post 1909 98/05 would be '22.A.x.yyy.', and for a Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.22 it would be '22.A.F.x.yyy.'   I am in the office and so I don't have my books here - but I'll check later

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jscott

Hi all

 

GEW - thanks so much for that link, I think I will be spending a lot of time reviewing that book! What a fantastic resource.

 

Trajan - I was going off Noll (FAR = Field Artillery Regiment). I don't have any information on pre/post 1909 markings, but happy to be corrected if I've got the analysis wrong.

 

Cheers, Jonathan

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trajan
1 hour ago, trajan said:

 

This is an odd one... There are at least two sets of markings here which need some analysis, but just for starters, I am pretty certain it is not 2. Westfälisches Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 22: the correct format for that on a post 1909 98/05 would be '22.A.x.yyy.', and for a Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.22 it would be '22.A.F.x.yyy.'   I am in the office and so I don't have my books here - but I'll check later

 

This one was bugging me so much I came home for lunch! 

 

The format is weird... 'F.A.R.22.3.B.88'. I thought these represented a double set but perhaps not and I'll treat it as one. Quite simply it does not fit any WW1 or 1918-1934 system I know of - but I don't claim to be an expert. Ha, a flash, jscott has replied so I'll stop here and then continue later.

 

And so we continue after reading that post 192 - Jonathan, that's Noll p.41, I take it.

 

I will also assume this has not been added to enhance the price of the bayonet...

 

Well, I would never deny the possibility of an unofficial marking along those lines (but 'F' could just as easily be Fuss as Feld!), but the DEV 185 regulations of 1909 are quite specific on the relevant marking system, and 'F.A.R.' is a no-no there - and regiment numbers always before! So. let's assume an unofficial one, and it is Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 22 or Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 22 - but what about the 'B'? It could be 'Batterie', or - following DVE 298a of 1913, on the marking of Gew.98 rifles and bayonets 'Bespannungsabteilung' or 'horse team'.

 

Julian

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jscott

Ha. Yes I know what you mean. It seems quite odd that such a late bayonet (dated 1917) would have unit markings at all - but I've seen others like this.

 

I've just had a look at the book (which is excellent) and it appears the 22nd field artillery regiment (if that is the right unit) was in the 13th division until 1916, and then disappears. I had read on a German forum that it went to the 200th Division, but it doesn't seem to be listed there. I don't seem to be able to search in the document, but will keep looking...

 

 

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jscott

Hi Trajan

 

I finally got around to a more in depth search of the markings listed in Noll's book, and there seem to be quite a few examples of the same style of marking as is shown on my bayonet (i.e. FAR marking first, with regiment number following), for example:

 

page 68 - F.A.r.1.86 (m1879 revolver)

page 97 - F.A.R.4 (m79 holster)

page 100 - F.A.R.66 1915 (m1908 pistol)

page 101 - FAR 11 (m1908 pistol)

page 101 - F.A.R.9  (m1908 pistol)

page 101 - F.A.R.58 (m1908 pistol)

page 101 - FAR70 (m1908 pistol)

page 145 - F.A.R.55.4.53 (Prussian artillery sword)

 

There also seems to be  "Fd.A.R" style marking as well.

 

These markings came up amongst a range of other feld-artillery markings (including a number that follow the guidelines you describe above), so obviously there was a bit of a mix in terms of the format. Despite there being no exact match for my bayonet's marking - I would suggest that the additional "B" is for Batterie as you suggested (and its i the right place for that).

 

Cheers, Jonathan

 

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trajan
1 hour ago, jscott said:

I finally got around to a more in depth search of the markings listed in Noll's book, and there seem to be quite a few examples of the same style of marking as is shown on my bayonet (i.e. FAR marking first, with regiment number following), for example: ...

 

Hi Jonathan,

Somewhere I do have all of Noll's marking in an EXCEL file and I should have checked that, but failed to do so because he is mainly interested in pistol markings... Serves me right for not doing so...:mellow: Yes, there are F.A.R. markings around that don't fit with what the rules say, and - as you noted from Noll - they are mainly pistol / revolver / holster related. I did a double check on what German literature I have and all I can say is that - unofficial marking! 

 

That aside, as you have already noted - odd to have a 1917 98/05 that is unit marked. But as we all know and must admit, there are so many exceptions to prove the rule, and so we accept the validity of the Dunning-Kruger effect...!

 

Best,

 

Julian

Edited by trajan
Corrected spelling

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jscott

Ha! I wouldn't go that far.

 

I've got to say, I have found that Noll book absolutely indispensable since I received it. Such a helpful reference.

 

Cheers, Jonathan

 

ps. Ill aim to add a few more standard unit markings to this thread shortly.

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trajan
19 minutes ago, jscott said:

... I've got to say, I have found that Noll book absolutely indispensable since I received it. Such a helpful reference. ... 

 

 

True, it is a very helpful work, although it is very annoying to use in many ways as it has no logical order other than weapon type: which is why I have been compiling my own more analytical listings, using Noll and the internet and other sources.

 

But, seriously, in this exercise, if one wants to go into more accurate analysis, what are needed are copies of the original German sources (the relevant pre-war Prussian and Bavarian Druckvorschriften), and also these two volumes: 

 

1) Joachim Görtz and Albrecht Wacker, Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel: auf Militär- und Diensthandwaffen 1871-2000 (ISBN-10: 3932077105, and ISBN-13: 978-3932077104

 

2) Joachim Gortz and Don L. Bryans, German Small Arms Markings from Authentic Sources (ISBN-10: 0965649202, and ISBN-13: 978-0965649209)

 

Both have summaries of the 1909 DVE which applies to most GW markings. The first is the longer and less-user-friendly of the two, and its listing of 'hypothetical' markings for the units of the Reichsheer is, well, hypothetical... The second is briefer, user-friendly, but leaves out much of the original documentation (including drawings of where markings should be) which can be found in the first.

 

I used to rely on Noll a lot until I started cross-referencing with the German and Bavarian official sources, the Druckvorschriften, which is when I discovered that some of his 'interpretations' of markings had no 'official' validity, as with the 'F.A.R.' marking; not that I wish to denigrate his work entirely as it has lots of raw data useful for further analysis! But, being very much a pedantic old f***, as one GWF member christened me (thanks, cobber!), I then had to enquire further and so eventually discovered the two books above. Mind you, for some of the markings that crop up I have found one has to use all sources - the various Druckvorschriften as well as these books, with a look at what Noll says and then at my own files to see if I have any parallel markings.

 

One day, if I can ever afford to retire, then I'll sort out and publish my listings of German unit-markings (well over 1,500, and so more than Noll). Actually, I have three lists: one a general list; one purely Bavarian markings; and one purely Ersatz markings. My complex series of interests and academic obligations has prevented me from integrating these properly, but one day, how about, German and Bavarian Small Arms Markings from 1871 to 1918: the Official Sources and Actual Examples...???!!! Perhaps I should crowd-source?!:thumbsup:

 

Julian

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jscott

Sounds great - put me down for a copy for starters. I've been pretty happy with Noll to date, but appreciate that there may be question marks over some of his interpretations. But still a very good source of original markings... certainly sufficient for my collecting purposes!

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wjones74

Hi , Thought I would share mine. 13 Husaren Regiment King Humbert von Italien . Undated but I believe it to be 15 .

there is a small wiki entry on this regiment .

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