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trajan

German Unit Bayonet Markings

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trajan

Here's a new one - posted also at http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207144#entry2234037, where other information is to be found, and posted here for completeness of record of unit marks. It's an Ersatz marked ' FlakZ.169', so from a flak unit (probably locomotive-based, but some uncertainty on that), and it's the first recorded example of this specific mark and the fourth marked example from the Flakzug units - but the first on an Ersatz!

post-69449-0-08331000-1425367217_thumb.j post-69449-0-12279900-1425367226_thumb.j

Trajan

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jscott

What a great marking - thanks for sharing!

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trajan

It IS a nice one! However, I do wish I could find something about these Flakzuge(n?). They are certainly around pretty early, and on the reasonable assumption that the FLZ marked ones are Flakzug also, then we are looking at a unit that required up to 1278 bayonets, the highest number I have found so far. That does not, of course, necessarily mean 1278 members as I think I saw something somewhere that reserve units would continue the numbering system on newly acquired bayonets replacing those that went on to front-line service. Whatever, as per SS's thread on collector's quandary, this is one I would not mind stretching the budget for...

Trajan

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jscott

Yes that sounds like a nice little rarity. I've definitely never seen one in the market. I imagine a large percentage of surviving German bayonets with interesting markings are sitting in existing collections, or tucked away in attics/ sheds around the world.

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motojosh

Some very nice bayonets posted in this thread. Here's a few of my unit marked examples:

Full unit marking on the flakzug ersatz shown above is FlakZ.169.9

13423c8e-2ff0-475c-aa8e-5a1b6db7170f.jpg

Amberg KS98 marked to Bayerisches 2nd Telegraphen Battalion

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Period shortened naval s98na of the 2nd Matrosen Division. Scabbard marked to I. Seebatallion.

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Gras modified for Commission rifle marked to Arbeiter-Kompagnie 3, waffe 74. (Credit to Trajan for unit Id on this)

3e8bfa1e-95d2-4e84-a713-1a6f32881e9b.jpg

1889 dated M1864 faschinenmesser of the 56th field artillery regiment, 4th battery?

DSC_0426.jpg

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bierast

Here's a new one - posted also at http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207144#entry2234037, where other information is to be found, and posted here for completeness of record of unit marks. It's an Ersatz marked ' FlakZ.169', so from a flak unit (probably locomotive-based, but some uncertainty on that), and it's the first recorded example of this specific mark and the fourth marked example from the Flakzug units - but the first on an Ersatz!

Going by the unit lists in Cron (Organisation des Heeres...) this was not a motorised (or even wagon-mounted) flak unit, at least when formed in 1915. In artillery terms a 'zug' is a two-gun section of a battery, so this probably consisted of two field guns on improvised AA mounts. Large numbers of such sections (originally designated Bak-Züge) were formed in the field by individual Feldartillerie-Regimenter and subsequently numbered as independent units; most of them were later grouped together to form Flak batteries.

Here is one of my favourite photos (apart from the family ones) of my Great-Grandfather's regiment, showing a Bak- or Flak-Zug formed by FAR 48.

http://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/images/FAR48_Franz75BAK.jpg

The gun is a French conversion of their 75mm field gun, evidently rebarreled for German 7.7cm ammunition after its capture in this case.

http://www.landships.info/landships/artillery_articles.html?load=/landships/artillery_articles/75mm_Mle_1897_AA_Mount.html

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trajan

Some very nice bayonets posted in this thread. Here's a few of my unit marked examples:

Very nice too - Thanks Motojosh!

Going by the unit lists in Cron (Organisation des Heeres...) this was not a motorised (or even wagon-mounted) flak unit, at least when formed in 1915. In artillery terms a 'zug' is a two-gun section of a battery, so this probably consisted of two field guns on improvised AA mounts. Large numbers of such sections (originally designated Bak-Züge) were formed in the field by individual Feldartillerie-Regimenter and subsequently numbered as independent units; most of them were later grouped together to form Flak batteries.

And many thanks to you too, Andi, on this explanation - and sharing that great photograph! I don't have access to a Cron. and so must start looking for one...

Trajan

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trajan

It IS a nice one! However, I do wish I could find something about these Flakzuge(n?). They are certainly around pretty early, and on the reasonable assumption that the FLZ marked ones are Flakzug also, then we are looking at a unit that required up to 1278 bayonets, the highest number I have found so far. That does not, of course, necessarily mean 1278 members as I think I saw something somewhere that reserve units would continue the numbering system on newly acquired bayonets replacing those that went on to front-line service.

Found it. DVE 185 (where else!)...

Section 1 (General Regulations), paragraphs 2, 3, and 4, are all about how weapons must be numbered consecutively within the unit, and that includes replacement weapons.

E.g., para 4: "Jede Waffenart ist mit fortlaufender Nummer zu stempeln" - "Each type of weapon is to be stamped within each type with consecutive numbers".

Indeed, Paragraph 3 specifically mentions that this is done to keep a record of how many examples of each type of weapon have been forwarded to active units.

Trajan

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bierast
And many thanks to you too, Andi, on this explanation - and sharing that great photograph! I don't have access to a Cron. and so must start looking for one...

This English translation of the 1937 edition contains the big lists of mobile combat units with year of establishment which I referred to. One moderately annoying aspect is that the unit titles are all translated (something I always avoid in my own work - that's what the glossary is for) which introduces some potential for confusion until you get used to it.

http://www.helion.co.uk/imperial-german-army-1914-18-organisation-structure-orders-of-battle.html

You can get the 1923 German edition (which doesn't have these unit listings) as a PDF for 5 EUR here; I tend to refer to both versions regularly.

http://military-books.lima-city.de/test/general-stuff-books.html

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trajan

This English translation of the 1937 edition contains the big lists of mobile combat units with year of establishment which I referred to. One moderately annoying aspect is that the unit titles are all translated (something I always avoid in my own work - that's what the glossary is for) which introduces some potential for confusion until you get used to it.

http://www.helion.co.uk/imperial-german-army-1914-18-organisation-structure-orders-of-battle.html

You can get the 1923 German edition (which doesn't have these unit listings) as a PDF for 5 EUR here; I tend to refer to both versions regularly.

http://military-books.lima-city.de/test/general-stuff-books.html

Thanks for those links Andi!

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trajan

I note that this exact unit marking appears a number of times in Roy Williams book (vol 1).

attachicon.gifphoto.jpg

In fact there are at least four examples of this mark and six examples of the even shorter 'B.5.R.' version - all 10 on different bayonets... Even though the regiment marked other bayonets in the 'usual' way, e.g., an example reading B.5.R.1.169...

Odd...

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trajan

Some very nice bayonets posted in this thread. Here's a few of my unit marked examples:

... Amberg KS98 marked to Bayerisches 2nd Telegraphen Battalion ...

Hi Josh,

My Bavarian bayonet data list is nearing completion (at 500+), and this is only the third Telegraph marking I have - and all are to the 2nd TB.... Nice to have it though - but can I have the year data please? I'll make a guess - W/14??!!

Julian

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jscott

Interesting - there seems to be a bit of clustering of markings to certain regiments. My guess on the 5th Bavarian Regiment marked 98/05s is that they were picked up en mass from soldiers killed during, or surrendering after the assault on Messines Ridge - I suspect there would have been a lot of souvenirs taken on that first day.

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trajan

Interesting - there seems to be a bit of clustering of markings to certain regiments. My guess on the 5th Bavarian Regiment marked 98/05s is that they were picked up en mass from soldiers killed during, or surrendering after the assault on Messines Ridge - I suspect there would have been a lot of souvenirs taken on that first day.

You could have a point there... I have still to complete the listing of published examples but of the 500+ Bavarian unit markings I have recorded to date no less than 23 are of the Bavarian 5th. None of the other 22 Bavarian regular regiments have produced more than 10 or so. However, note that only 7 of the ones marked to the 5ththat I have recorded are S.98/05's - the remainder range from a solitary S.71, through a couple pf 71/84's and 98's, to an assortment of EB's and a single S.14. But even so, the records for the 5th produce a noticeable peak...

BTW, it will take me another month or so to complete checking the last few works for published examples, and I haven't yet really explored what there might be on the web. It is a time consuming business. However, I'll put the results up when completed for one and all to play with!

Julian

PS: Did you check out

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jscott

Thanks - sounds interesting, Ill be keen to take a look. Ive found German bayonets a little thinner on the ground since returning to Australia, but am still very interested in unit marked German bayonets.

Did I check out? Suspect a few words may have been cut off here...

cheers, J

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trajan

Did I check out? Suspect a few words may have been cut off here...

Thinking of adding a reference then realised it was necessary but kids came home just before editing it out and then posted in haste! Sorry, should have edited the post - will do so now...

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calibre792x57.y

In relation to bayonets with a 'B5R' marking. I once owned one which may already be in your records. It was a Sg98/05 mS in a steel mounted black leather scabbard. The inspection date was 1914. With it came a folded envelope with a pencil scrawled note 'Hun Bayonet captured at Flers village'. There was also an old typed label 'German Bayonet captured by Captain H.E. McKinnon, M.C (followed by a handwritten 'and bar' update.) N.Z.E.F. la Somme 1916.' This officer, 2nd Wellington Battn. was a veteran of the Somme and 3rd Ypres winning an M.C. in each. Unfortunately he was killed in the last action of the regiment in November 1918. He was the Major O/C the reserve and was not in the actual assault. He and his RSM were walking a mile or two behind the line when a single German shell exploded on the road, killing both. So these partially marked bayonets were probably marked to the Regiment on receipt before being issued to Companies as required, by which time the marking of bayonets had been discontinued. - Hope this is helpful. - SW

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trajan

In relation to bayonets with a 'B5R' marking. I once owned one which may already be in your records. It was a Sg98/05 mS in a steel mounted black leather scabbard. The inspection date was 1914.

A nice bayonet with a back story - must have been difficult to part with it! And it is also a new one for me... Although I have seven 98/05's with the 'B.5.R.' or 'B.5.R.1' mark, the only sawback among them is marked L/15 for Ludwig and so is certainly a different one altogether. Thanks!

Julian

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motojosh

Hi Josh,

My Bavarian bayonet data list is nearing completion (at 500+), and this is only the third Telegraph marking I have - and all are to the 2nd TB.... Nice to have it though - but can I have the year data please? I'll make a guess - W/14??!!

Julian

Hi Julian,

Yeah, it's a W/14. Amberg ks98s were only made in 1914 which makes them one of the tougher ones to find. I know of one other Bavarian with a telegraph marking: "B.T.E.51." which is on a 98/02mS.

I've sent you a link to the dealers site with photos of it.

-Josh

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trajan

Hi Julian,

Yeah, it's a W/14. Amberg ks98s were only made in 1914 which makes them one of the tougher ones to find. I know of one other Bavarian with a telegraph marking: "B.T.E.51." which is on a 98/02mS.

I've sent you a link to the dealers site with photos of it.

-Josh

Thanks josh - much appreciated

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motojosh

This is a bit of an odd one, an 84/98 n/a marked 1.J.E.(Jager Ersatz?) with marking oriented in the Bavarian manner facing down towards the pommel, but no B denoting Bavarian use. Does anyone recognize the maker from what's still visible?

CSC_0508.jpg

CSC_0501.jpg

CSC_0503.jpg

CSC_0506.jpg

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shippingsteel

Does anyone recognize the maker from what's still visible?

The maker will be F.Koeller & Co. of Solingen-Ohligs. The marking is stamped in 3 lines/levels with F.Koeller & Co at the top, Ohligs in centre and Solingen at the bottom.

Cheers, S>S

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motojosh

Thank you shippingsteel, much appreciated.

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trajan

This is a bit of an odd one, an 84/98 n/a marked 1.J.E.(Jager Ersatz?) with marking oriented in the Bavarian manner facing down towards the pommel, but no B denoting Bavarian use. Does anyone recognize the maker from what's still visible?

The maker will be F.Koeller & Co. of Solingen-Ohligs. The marking is stamped in 3 lines/levels with F.Koeller & Co at the top, Ohligs in centre and Solingen at the bottom.

Cheers, S>S

That's a nice one josh and SS spot on with maker. Have a search of GWF for the maker as I am certain this one has been discussed before. I am travelling right now but will check the books when I get back for anything more to be added. A pity the spine mark is not clear but after mid-1915 or so I think many Bavarian bayonets were stamped W for Wilhelm of Prussia following an order that the Prussian war ministry would assume control of all bayonet orders. I'll have to check that also when I get back later this week.

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trajan

... I am travelling right now but will check the books when I get back for anything more to be added. ....

Just back and lots to catch up on!

A start with this one - Carter vol II p.182 merely adds that "many [of these Koeller 84/98's] are undated".

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