Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

trajan

German Unit Bayonet Markings

Recommended Posts

trajan

That's ok Jeff - the lad was having the same hassle too! I'll try to find you a nice obscure MG marking as field punishment... :thumbsup:

Now, what do we have here? On a French website (where prices are 50% what they are in the UK!), an S.71 with a WILHELM/SUHL maker's mark, and so W/72-76, according to the data. Nice clear marks but way over-polished... Non-matching numbers but the same unit... 111.R.R.1.167 on the bayonet, and 111.R.R.3.117 on the scabbard. So, Reserve-(Infanterie-) Regiment Nr. 111, a Badisches unit, which matches the frog stud, one of those long narrow Baden-W types. On the other hand, look closely at that scabbard marking... Traces of an earlier one there methinks...

Edit: their history is at: http://genwiki.genealogy.net/RIR_111

post-69449-0-79167500-1415037914_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

And one more from France - S.71 again, a Coppel, allegedly W/89, but I don't see any S.71's being made that year, so really W/79?

Whatever, '3.R.4.69' on the bayonet gives us the 'Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich Wilhelm I (2. Ostpreußisches) Nr.3', at http://genwiki.genealogy.net/Gren.R_3; while '88.R.12,78' is the '2. Nassauisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.88', at http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_88. The scabbard is again with what I have always thought to be one of those B-W type frog-studs...

post-69449-0-67807900-1415039740_thumb.j post-69449-0-80721200-1415039769_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Here's a nice one... 16. FK. 44, and I think 16.Fuhrpark-Kolonne Waffe 44... But it's on a P.1903 bayonet! See http://s400910952.we...ayonets doa.htm

Trajan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4thGordons

Might I hear the expert opinion on the probable date of these unit markings?

post-14525-0-41391900-1416891225_thumb.j post-14525-0-45884800-1416891231_thumb.j post-14525-0-70883900-1416891238_thumb.j

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Well I certainly would not claim to be an expert and in any case I am a long ways from home and my books! But it is certainly NOT a standard Schutzpolizei marking, as a quick look at the web will show.

Take this as an example, downloaded for reference purposes only from http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/deutsche-polizei-forum/police-bayonets-anyone-129278-2/

post-69449-0-53289400-1416916987_thumb.j

This is: - 'S' = Schutzpolizei; 'Br' = Breslau; 'II' = 2nd precinct; '104' = weapon no. 104.

As far as I can remember and from what I have just gone through on the web, all standard schutzpolizei bayonet markings follow that format: Letter S for Schutzpolizei, letter for the city, Roman numerals for the precinct; 'Arabic' numerals for the weapon number.

Hope this helps, but have to admit that personally it looks a wee bit of a curate's egg to me...

Julian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Richie B

Schutzpolizei Danzig - established 1921

This style of marking is illustrated in History Writ in Steel - German Police Markings 1900-1936 by Don Maus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Schutzpolizei Danzig - established 1921

This style of marking is illustrated in History Writ in Steel - German Police Markings 1900-1936 by Don Maus.

Well done that man! I wondered if it might be Danzig but I had not seen that format before... Thanks to your lead I see that there are several pistols marked this way and also at least one bayonet - a W/18 98/05, marked Schupo.Dz.1052 at http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm64.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=7577&t=temartic_R_D&db=kat64_3R.txt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4thGordons

Thanks. That confirms what I had thought. I will pass the information on the owner.

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Schutzpolizei Danzig - established 1921

This style of marking is illustrated in History Writ in Steel - German Police Markings 1900-1936 by Don Maus.

Richie B, just out of interest, are there any other markings in that book that have the same kind of format as this? I.E., 'Schupo. Place name. Number'? All the other police bayonets I have seen (and they are not my especial interest, so just a cursory look-around) have the format as posted above in no. 130.

If this mark stands alone, that is to say, there is nothing else similar to it, I can only think that a possible explanation might be the odd status of Danzig as a free city between the wars, nominally at least completely independent of both Germany and Poland, but subject of course to great influence from Germany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gpcooke

Hi All,

Am fairly new here but thought I'd try to get some help regarding an 1871 I picked up today. It has an Erfurt 1881 date. The unit marks are 34.R.E.1.135. I've tried to find copies of Jeff Noll's book tonight but looks like they sold out long ago. Blade manufacturer is GEBR. Weyersberg in Solingen. Can anyone help me decipher these unit markings? Thanks!

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
msdt

Hi Greg,

I think the mark is "Infanterie-Regiment 34, Ersatz-Bataillon, Kompagnie 1, Waffe Nr. 135". Found a similar example in Noll. The advert for his new reprint is below, you can email him on the address:

"The Imperial German Regimental Marking [Revised Edition]" by Jeff Noll is available again. This Redux publication is spiral bound with a color cover (w/clear plastic top cover), printed on 28 pound paper, 198 pages and is the same as my original printed and bound hardcover book. It will be produced in very small quantities. Price is $80 plus $5.60 Priority mail postage (USA). Non-USA addresses-I will ship per your preference. Shipping weight is 1.75 pounds. Other shipping methods are always available at buyers direction. Personal checks are fine. Please mail to: Jeff Noll, P.O.Box 7184, Ventura, CA, USA 93006-7184. Paypal is also available for everyone (Foreign and USA). My Paypal address is; nopubl@earthlink.net

Cheers,

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gpcooke

Thanks much, Tony!

I thought that it might have been an Ersatz, or replacement, Battalion after I did a little more research last night. Would the 34 Infantry Regiment be the same as the 34th Division? As I was reading last night I found out the 34th was a Prussian Division that played a significant role through WWI. I was reading on another site that the replacement battalions were made up of surviving units from other outfits as they became too small to be effective. They were evidently consolidated and assigned as reinforcements for larger units, like the 34th.

The 34th was active from 1890-1919. It's interesting that this 1881 manufactured bayonet would have only this one unit mark on the locket, with none on the cross piece. Seems odd that an older bayonet would have been issued to a troop in a replacement battalion. It was in pretty bad condition when I got it, but it cleaned up nicely. I wonder if it may have been an early trophy of some kind. I'll ask the person I bought it from if he knows anything about it.

Thanks again,

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Hi Greg,

I think the mark is "Infanterie-Regiment 34, Ersatz-Bataillon, Kompagnie 1, Waffe Nr. 135". Found a similar example in Noll.

Well done Tony,

I am away from home so don't have access to a Noll. I could find no record on any of the German sites for a 34 Reserve Ersatz (Regiment) 34, which "34.R.E." should mean on the basis of the 1909 regulations. The nearest possibility I could see was also the Brigade-Ersatz-Bataillon Nr. 34. But I hesitated to suggest that as my downloaded copy of the 1905 regulations specifically states the use of a Roman letter 'B' for Brigade, and so I would have thought that the unit would have marked their weapons something like "34.B.E." - on the basis that weapon markings go from big to little, and so from Brigade to Ersatz. So, another exception to test the rule??!!

... Would the 34 Infantry Regiment be the same as the 34th Division? ...The 34th was active from 1890-1919. It's interesting that this 1881 manufactured bayonet would have only this one unit mark on the locket, with none on the cross piece.

Greg

Hi Greg,

Not the same thing I'm afraid! As I understand it, so happy to be corrected, on mobilisation in 1914 each Infantry Brigade established a brigade reserve battalion which received the the same number as the Brigade, each with 2 replacement companies.

Assuming this mark is for the Brigade-Ersatz-Bataillon Nr. 34, it was established on 2 August 1914, as part of the 34. Infanterie-Brigade (Großherzoglich Mecklenburgische). But it looks like the first 2 companies had different histories, e.g., one going to the Infanterie Regiment Nr. 362 as its II Bataillon, while the other went to the Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 210.

All that apart, this mark is on the locket? So, are we talking about a leather scabbard? It would be very nice to have a photograph - especially to confirm that it is "34.R.E." and not "34.R.B.".

Trajan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Here's one that's waiting for me when I get back to Ankara in January, courtesy of my dear wifey who went looking for another S71 for me on the web! She won't say where she found it and the photograph is not good, but the details are: W/76, Clemen and Jung, Solingen, marked 67.R.6.45. So, I guess, 4. Magdeburgisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.67, Company 6, weapon 45. So that would be the II Battalion...

SS, by the way, has one the same type, but lacking regimental markings - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=179457 post 10.

post-69449-0-91522600-1419095060_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wainfleet

These are the markings on my Delville Wood souvenir bayonet as posted here. Pic is best I can do in the bad light available. The scabbard and bayonet are to two different units but both Bavarian reserve regiments (so I believe). Bayonet says B.19.R.6.20, scabbard says B.4.R.2.24. The ruthless cleaning wasn't done by me or the previous owner.

post-6903-0-89842800-1419337310_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Nice markings though! Got to dash, but off-hand, I'd say -

Kgl. Bayer. 4. Infanterie-Regiment König Wilhelm von Württemberg, with a potted history at: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/4._IR_(KB)

And

Kgl. Bayer. 16. Infanterie-Regiment Großherzog Ferdinand von Toskana, with a potted history at: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/16._IR_(KB)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
high wood

A M1898 by C G Haenel of Suhl and dated 1908. Marked B.4.R.16.213 (4th Bavarian Infantry Regiment (Koneg Wilhelm V (Wutemburg)) 16th Kompany. Waffe 213.

Sadly it has been separated from its scabbard. As it came from a house clearance it was probably a souvenir brought home from France or Flanders.

post-6480-0-78505300-1420630626_thumb.jp

post-6480-0-47446200-1420630640_thumb.jp

post-6480-0-79592300-1420630664_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

A very nice find there! Yes, the Königlich Bayerischen 4. Infant.-Regt. “König Wilhelm v. Württemberg” 2. Komp., Waffe 243 - they were at Metz in 1914. I am not at home, but I have found a record in my files of another S.98 issued to this unit, this one spine marked 'O/05', for King Otto, 1905 - what is the spine fraktur mark on yours? Those look like 'S' frakturs on the pommel? But I don't know which version of Fraktur alphabet...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
high wood

Here is the spine fraktur mark: Konig Otto 1907.

post-6480-0-77240300-1420636511_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Thnaks! Can't check right now but it reminds me of the 'S' fraktur found on the Gottscho bayonets...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Well, they are "S" frakturs but not quite the same as those found on the Gottschos, which is a bit of a relief!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Time for a nice update! In fact a couple of probable pre-1909 Landwehr markings that took a bit of research, one on an unmodified Chassepot the other on a S71 scabbard locket. They were first discussed and illustrated at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222940#entry2221719so this is a cross-reference for completness.

The one on the unmodified Chassepot is: "117.L.I.4.106."; the one on the S71 scabbard locket is: "26.L.I.1.185".

As I understand it, then according to the 1877 Vorschrift über das Bezeichnen und Numerieren pp. 51-52, these are battalion markings for the respective Landwehr regiment - "117.L.I.4.106" for 117.L(andwehr-Regiment).I(Bataillon).4(Kompagnie).(Waffe)106., and "26.L.I.1.185" for 26.L(andwehr-Regiment).I(Bataillon).1(Kompagnie).(Waffe)185.

This type of marking does not seem to be listed in the 1909 regulations, which suggests that they were done before then.

Trajan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trajan

Forgot to note the other unit mark on the S71 locket - '118.R.4.226'. So with that italic 'R' that's the 1909 regulation marking for the '118 R(eserve Infanterie-Regiment),4 (Kompagnie), (Waffe) 226', with a history at: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/RIR_118

Trajan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...