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trajan

German Unit Bayonet Markings

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trajan

Just started on the next bit of the 1877 regulations and have hit an abbreviation I do not know - anyone have any ideas?

It is in the section explaining how abbreviations and markings are to be done for weapons in Headquarters units and it reads:

"Kavalleriesäbel a/M.Nr.5 = H.Q.5"

Well, that's for cavalry sabre number no.5, and I am thinking the 'M' is for Model, but...???

After all, its getting late here and I am off late tomorrow for a practical fieldwork weekend in a mobile phone and internet-less area (sounds like parts of Wales?!!), but I am looking forward to any responses overnight on this one!

Trajan

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trajan

Hah, obviously 'All Models', as in 'Cavalry sabre, all models'... The 1877 regulations do indicate that some 'models', i.e., 'types', of weapons are to be marked differently from other models of the same class of weapon...

Trajan

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sawdoc34

Thanks for that Julian, looking at picking up a matching number RE marked S98 bayonet & scabbard.

Might be able to locate a high eared 98/05 with scabbard, just waiting to hear back but if any good I will keep it til next time you are over here mate.

Cheers,

Aleck

Our friend and mate Sawdoc has just sent me photographs of a load of luverly bayonets he has recently picked up (some that would make even SS's eyes water!). Among them was this nice unit marking, which he has allowed me to post here. It's on a 98/05 leather scabbard, '28.P.4.59', and it does show nicely the different sizes involved in these markings as per regulations!

Well, '28.P.4.59' is for the 2. Brandenburgisches Pionier-Bataillon Nr.28, and is Company 4, weapon 59. The history of the unit is to be found at http://genwiki.genealogy.net/PB_28 and if one follows the links then we discover that after WWI began, this company was amalgamated with a Garde Pionier Bataillon to become the Pionier-Regiment Nr. 31 - and their history is here: http://genwiki.genealogy.net/PR_31

Nice find Alec... BTW, did I tell you it is my birthday soon? :whistle:

20140414_130858_resized.jpg

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Mitter2k1

Hello,

This is a great thread and I am hoping that someone could provide some assistance. I have a rather rough M1898 n/A made by Alex Coppel that I picked up from a rather nice elderly woman for a few bucks. I have no clue as to what the markings are but they read 1.27.P.7.248. Unfortunately they are too rough to photograph with any decent clarity otherwise I would post a pic of them. Do you guys have any thoughts on these?

Thank you,

Mike M.

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shippingsteel

Given that you say the markings are very rough, I am going to assume that they read as 127.R.7.248 as this would make more sense from a German army perspective.

If that marking is correct it will indicate belonging to the 9. Württembergisches Infanterie-Regt. Nr.127 (Ulm, Waiblingen) XIII Armee Korps, 7.Kompagnie, Waffe Nr.248

Cheers, S>S

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trajan

Hello,

This is a great thread and I am hoping that someone could provide some assistance. I have a rather rough M1898 n/A made by Alex Coppel that I picked up from a rather nice elderly woman for a few bucks. I have no clue as to what the markings are but they read 1.27.P.7.248. Unfortunately they are too rough to photograph with any decent clarity otherwise I would post a pic of them. Do you guys have any thoughts on these?

Thank you,

Mike M.

Glad you like it Mike! And it is serving a major part of its purpose with write-ins like yours! :thumbsup:

I am just back from a long weekend doing fieldwork in an internet (and mobile-phone!) deprived area of Turkey, so just signed in. I think S>S> is spot on the ball, unless that R is not a Roman 'R' like this - R - but a script 'R', and so something like this - R.

BTW, what date is it? And a photograph would be appreciated!

Julian

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Mitter2k1

Hello and thank you guys for the reply. It is a Roman R and I am not sure where to look for a date. It does not appear to have one that is distinguishable, or I am going blind. I forgot a couple of tricks that I could try to make the numbers show. I used babypowder and that did not work, however I used a china marker (grease pencil) and rubbed it into the stamping. I then lightly wiped off the excess with a soft rag and gun oil. The white stayed in the stamps and allowed me to be able to photograph it with greater ease. Part of the R appears to be missing from the years of neglect prior to me owning it. So here is a pic and if anyone could point me to where the date is, I will see if it still present.

Thanks,

Mike M.

post-99460-0-26325600-1398739306_thumb.j

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shippingsteel

So here is a pic and if anyone could point me to where the date is, I will see if it still present.

So it appears the regiment will be as per my previous post. You have really got it to stand out now very nicely. The date is found on the top edge of blade near handle. See below.

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-48520400-1398739913_thumb.j

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Mitter2k1

Thank you. I actually saw that and it had me wondering. It appears that this one is a 04. The crown and W are not as pronounced as yours, but the numbers are there.

Thanks again,

Mike M.

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trajan

Mike, if you are lucky you might find another mark beneath the '04', a crown over a German Gothic letter - that is the 'Fraktur' mark, made by the inspector who checked the bayonet before it was accepted for service use *you can see this on ShippingSteel's photograph). You might also find one or two similar marks above the press stud on the pommel. These two pictures - to help you know what to look for - are of these marks on a 1898 shown on Ralph Cobb's web-site http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/Germany__Imperial_/Germany_Imperial_2.html

Julian

post-69449-0-02091700-1398750856_thumb.j post-69449-0-51290400-1398750837_thumb.j

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trajan

This is a nice 98 that has popped up on a site I will not name, and is shown here for reference and record purposes. It is a O/11 Haenel of Suhl with nice Bavarian marks - we haven't seen too many of these Bayerisches Waffen on this thread so let's go further!

The bayonet is 'B.4.R.3.159', and as it is a O/11 and so after 1909, and the 'R' is a script one, then unless I am mistaken (always possible!), this is the Königlich Bayerisches Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 4, Company 3, weapon 159. And the scabbard is for the same unit, but for weapon 27.

post-69449-0-40236400-1398875085_thumb.j post-69449-0-19273500-1398875099_thumb.j post-69449-0-67744500-1398875124_thumb.j

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trajan

This is also a nice marking from the same site, a W/88 S.71/84, no maker mark but nice markings, for '48 R.6.131', and crossed out scabbard markings that I can't quite work out. Well, 48 R.6.131 is the Reserve-Infanterie Regiment Nr. 48, and this is waffe 131 for Company 6.

post-69449-0-31501200-1398878045_thumb.j post-69449-0-98960300-1398878164_thumb.j

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trajan

Yeah, I know - I have wanted to get the next bit of the 1877 regulations up for over two weeks but work issues prevented me completing the translation! It will come soon!

In the meantime the really good news just appeared that Jeff Noll will be issuing a revised (3rd) edition of his classic "The Imperial German Regimental Markings", possibly in June (copies of the 2nd edition are so rare and so much in demand that they sell for upwards of USD 300). I'll keep you all informed!

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jscott

Thats great news re the Noll book. Its about £670 on Amazon so its probably high time for a reprint! Do let me know if you see it for sale anywhere.

Cheers, J

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trajan

Thats great news re the Noll book. Its about £670 on Amazon so its probably high time for a reprint! Do let me know if you see it for sale anywhere.

Cheers, J

WOW!!! :excl: I'll certainly keep you in touch - Jeff indicated recently that the 3rd edition should be ready this summer!

End of term time here, essay-marking and exams to prepare, so no time at all to do the next part of the 1877 regulations - it will come shortly!

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trajan

Thats great news re the Noll book. Its about £670 on Amazon so its probably high time for a reprint! Do let me know if you see it for sale anywhere.

Cheers, J

OK, for those interested in the Jeff Noll 3rd edition -see

Hopefully the 2nd edition at GBP 670 (that's almost half my Turkish salary!) will now drop from that price...Haven't ordered my 3rd yet but will do so tomorrow.

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jscott

Wonderful, thanks for the heads up Trajan. Im on board.

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trajan

It has been a long time since I have been back here (thanks to Maj.Yate and our antipodean teddy thrower before he closed the thread!), and now that Jeff's book seems to have been bought by many of the more devoted unit-marking freaks, there isn't much more I can probably contribute on the 1877 regulations about bayonet markings... But I found a free hour today and those markings do get repetitive, and so I'll leave with one last bash, the basic weapons marking parlaver!

(IV. Beispiele der Bezeichnung)

Examples of the markings

P.50)1. Kommando=Behörden

1. Command authorities

Großes Hauptquartier Sr. Majestät

P.51) Des Kaisers, Kavalleriesäbel a[ltes] /M[uster].Nr.5 H.Q.5.

Supreme Headquarters of his Majesty the Kaiser, a cavalry sabre old Model No.5

Feld=Gensdarmerie=Kommando im Großen Hauptquartier

Sr. Majestät des Kaisers, Kürassier=Degen Nr. 4 H.Q.F.G.4.

Field gendarmerie command in the Supreme Headquarters of his Majesty the Kaiser, Curassier epee no. 4

Ober=Kommando der I.Armee, Infanterie=Seitengewehr

u[mgeandertes]/M[uster]. Nr. 10 O.I.10.

Senior command of the I Army, infantry bayonet unmodified model no. 10

Kavallerie=Stabswache bei dem Ober=Kommando der

I.Armee, Waffe Nr.10 O.I.C.St.10.

Cavalry staff bodyguard of the I Army, weapon no. 10

Infanterie=Stabswache bei dem selbem, desgleichen O.I.İ.St.10.

Infantry staff bodyguard of the same, is equal

General=Kommando des Garde= resp. 6.Armee=Korps,

Gewehr Nr.5 G.K.G.5., G.K.VI.5.

General Command of the Guard of the 6 Army Corps, rifle no. 5

Feld=Gensdarmerie des Garde= resp. 6.Armee=Korps,

pistol Nr.16 F.G.G.16., F.G.VI.16.

Kavallerie=Stabswache des Garde= resp. 6.Armee=Korps,

pistol Nr.16 C.St.G.16., C.St.VI.16.

Infanterie=Stabswache des Garde= resp. 6.Armee=Korps,

Gewehr Nr.16 İ.St.G.16., İ.St.VI.16.

Kommando einer Infanterie=Division, z.B. der I. Garde=

resp. I. Infanterie=Division, Kavalleriesäbel a/M. Nr.6. 1.G. İ.D.6., 1.İ.D.6.

Kommando einer Kavallerie=Division, z.B. der Garde=

resp. 3. Kavallerie=Division, Pistol Nr.2. G.C.D.2., 3.C.D.2.

Kommando einer Infanterie=Brigade, z.B. der 3. Garde=

resp. I5. Infanterie=Brigade, das Gewehr des Schreibers 3.G.İ.B., 15.İ.B.

Kommando einer Kavallerie=Brigade, z.B. der 1. Garde=

resp. 6. Kavallerie=Brigade, Kavalleriesäbel a/M. Nr.5. 1.G.C.B.5., 6.C.B.5.

Kommando einer Feld=Artillerie=Brigade, z.B. der 1. Garde=

resp. (p 52) 6. Feld=Artilerie=Brigade, Kavalleriesäbel

a/M. Nr.5. G.A.B.5., 6.A.B.5.

Kommando einer Reserve=Infanterie=Division, z.B. der I.

Garde= resp. 2. Reserve=Infanterie=Division, Kavalleriesäbel

a/M. Nr.5. G.R.İ.D.5., 2.R.İ.D.5.

Kommando einer Reserve=Infanterie=Brigade, z.B. der I.

Garde= resp. 4. Reserve=Infanterie=Brigade, Kavalleriesäbel

a/M. Nr.5. G.R.İ.B.5., 4.R.İ.B.5.

Anmerkungen

1. Die für daß Große hauptquartier Seiner Majestät des Kaisers erforderlichen handwaffen warden nur mit der Bezeichnung H.Q., und jede Waffengattung für sich mit fortlaufenden Nummern versehern.

The hand weapons issued for the Supreme Headquarters of His Majesty the Emperor can be marked only with HQ, and each type of weapon identified for with consecutive numbers.

Ausgenommen sind hiervon die Waffen der Feld-Gensdarmerie, welche ihre eigene Bezeichnung erhalten, sowie auch diejenigen Waffen, welche die zur Bildung der Kavallerie= und der Infanterie=Stabswache von den Truppen abgegebeuen Manschaften mitbringen. Diese letzeren Waffen behalten ihre Bezeichnung bei.

Exceptions to these rules are the weapons of the military police, which have their own designation, and those weapons belonging to the cavalry and the infantry headquarters bodyguard, recognized by their sleeve cuffs: these weapons retain their designation.

Dieselbe Anordnung findet analog auf die Waffen für die Oberkommandos der Armee Anwendung, mit der Maßgabe jedoch, daß die Waffen der Kavallerie= und Infanterie=Stabswachen gleichfalls ihre eigene Bezeichnung erhalten.

The same applies to the weapons for the Supreme Command of the Army, except that the weapons of the cavalry and infantry will also receive their own designation.

2. Die Waffen für die Feldgensdarmerie=Abteilung, welche bei jedem Armee=Korps Behufs Bildung des Feldgensdarmerie=Detachements der Etappen=Inspektion formiert wird, erhalten dieselbe Bezeichnung wie die Waffen des Feldgensdarmerie=Detachements des Armee=Korps. Die laufenden Nummern der Waffen für die Abteilung schließen sich die nummern der Waffen für das Feldgensdarmerie=Detachements des Armee=Korps an.

The weapons for the Fieldgendarmerie section, which exist in each army corps to inspect the Fieldgendarmerie detachments of the units, are marked in the same way as the weapons of the Fieldgendarmerie detachments of the Army Corps. The appropriate serial number of the weapons for the section includes the numbers of the weapons for the Fieldgendarmerie detachments of the army corps.

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Michael Haselgrove

Trajan,

Here's another to keep you happy. An S 98/05 aA manufactured by Simpson & Co. Suhl and marked W 10. The marking on the bayonet and scabbard is 8.A.F.15.123. for, I think, the 8th Foot Artillery Regiment, 15th Battery, Weapon number 123.

I only acquired this bayonet a few weeks ago and have not had the opportunity to do any research. In that respect, I need to check on the 15th Battery since the number seems high.

Regards,

Michael.

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post-53132-0-46496400-1402913761_thumb.j

post-53132-0-25450500-1402913789_thumb.j

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jscott

Lovely bayonet Michael - thanks for posting. Nice crisp markings too.

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trajan

... The marking on the bayonet and scabbard is 8.A.F.15.123. for, I think, the 8th Foot Artillery Regiment, 15th Battery, Weapon number 123.

Indeed, a luverly bayonet there! And even more luverly nice markings too!

Well, that marking is - as you say - 8th Foot Artillery Regiment, 15th Battery, Weapon number 123, and they are the: Rheinisches Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.8. Their history is at: http://genwiki.genealogy.net/Fu%C3%9F-AR_8

And the wonderful Drake Goodman archive has a photograph of: "Recruits from Rheinisches Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.8 Rekrutendepot Langenheim, Kreis Metz, visiting the monuments at Gravelotte", which he dates to about 1916 (but they are wearing pickelhauben so possibly earlier?): see https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/5588605498/

Julian

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jscott

Hi all

I thought I would resurrect this thread as I think it is extremely informative. Here are two recent acquisitions, a Bavarian marked ersatz, and a s98/05 marked to a machine gun unit.

Re the second bayonet, I am unsure whether the marking 3.M.G.77. refers to Machinengewehr-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 77 (i.e. unknown regiment) or whether it refers to Machinengewehr-Kompagnie 3, 77 IR. From what I can see Noll interprets markings in both ways. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers, Jonathan

post-55285-0-24276300-1413218742_thumb.j

post-55285-0-94948700-1413219075_thumb.j

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trajan

Hi Jonathan,

I have one coming my way which I was going to post here when it arrives but thanks for posting yours!

I am still travelling in Turkey away from home, and so cannot check any books, but the Ersatz (one of the 3-9 series?) looks Bavarian... If you have access to AJC's Ersatz volume or William's vol 2, then you might find a parallel there, but off-hand I cannot think of any Bavarian ersatz bayonets - but happy to be proven wrong!

The other, yes, hmm... I can't recall ever seeing a 98/05 marked for a machine gun company.... Again there may be examples, but I just can't recall one...

SS or A.N.Other may come in soon on these, but if not, then I'll be back home in 2 days and I can check Carter and Williams - my Noll is in the UK, where I go to next week.

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jscott

Hi Trajan

I think there are a few 98/05s marked to machine gun companies on the first page of this thread, but I agree they are not common - Noll does't list any. On the ersatz, I was assuming it was simply a standard bayonet which ended up being issued to a Bavarian regiment for some reason, rather than a Bavarian specific bayonet. I'm pretty certain I've seen other Bavarian marked ersatz bayonets but I'll take a look and let you know.

Hope the trip is going well.

Cheers, J

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trajan

Well, that'll larn me to pay a bit more attention to my own threads... :blush: Oh for retirement and more free-time! I would love to spend more time collating more data on units marks in general and putting an accessible data-base together - and also re-reading what has been posted! For the time being, well, I will be back home tomorrow for a week and I'll check what I have that might help with the M.G. one.

As for the Ersatz - what model is it? I'm guessing an EB3 EB9 or derivative? Incidentally, I have completed the metallurgical analysis of my EB3-9 series, and I hope to get the data sorted out so that it can be presented on GWF at some point. One interesting things already apparent: the composition of these Ersatz bayonets more closely matches the composition of WW2 German bayonets than it does the WW1 products of Horster and Waffenfabrik...

Julian

Edit: Memory in gear over lunch and wi-fi connected, and so I corrected the EB type number

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