German Unit Bayonet Markings

[trajan]

Trajan - maker is Simpson & Co and the date is 05.

Cheers, Jonathan

That is interesting! Years fits with Carter's data for supply to the Wurttemburger units but not that maker!

Carter had deduced military order and supply patterns from the data he had for several different type of bayonets in the pre WW1 period, but as more and more data is placed on records - all thanks to a thread like this and sharers like yourself - then the patterns become even more confusing!

Julian

[trajan]

More grist for the mill...

A gift to me today, from my brother.

Erfurt, 05. With slightly shrunken, but otherwise nice shape leather scabbard. A welcome addition, since my other 98 has a metal scabbard.

I make the bayonet 129.R.4.199? Then Infanterie-Regiment General-Feldmarschall von Mackensen (3. Westpreussisches) Nr.129, 4 Kompagnie Waffe 199 - see http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_129

This unit was with the XVII Armee Korps, and Carter only lists four 98/05's for the 12 regiments, and none of these are for the 129.

The scabbard is 96.R.6.229, so 7. Thüringisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.96, 6 Kompagnie, Waffe 229, and their history is on http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_96

This unit was with the XI Armee Korps, and Carter only lists five 98/05's for the 12 regiments and its Jaeger Machine-gun battalion, and none of these are for the 96.

Nice bayonet and scabbard and with rare unit marks! And there seems to be a heck of a lot of these S.98's over your side of the pond!

You've got a good brother there (unlike one of my older brothers, who, when he joined the police at 17, and I was 12, threw away my collection of SA daggers and bayonets and the like because they were "dangerous nazi memorabilia" ... I have never really quite forgiven him...)

[trajan]

I was about to post something up here about German bayonet frog stud markings, and then I saw that this thread/topic had gone 'HOT'... Is that a good thing? If so, oh 'eck, now I'll have to watch p's and q's more carefully!

Anyway, frog stud markings. All I really wanted to say was that on this thread - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208823&page=2, post 39, S>S> posted one of these on an SG98 scabbard frog stud - '8.K.85' for 8.Kompagnie Waffe Nr.85.

I have been trying in between times since he posted this to find some other examples - i.e, I have not been looking very hard but watching out for what comes up! And I have not had much luck, so far, except that this does seem to be often the case with the scabbards of the Kaiserliche Marine M 60's... S>S>, and anyone else, know of any other examples?

Always good to know and expand the data bank!

TTFN,

Trajan

[trajan]

The 1877 Regulations, Section I:

With my lovely lady wife and the kids out for an eventing (sic), I though that as and when time permits I'd slowly work my way through and translate (to the best of my ability) the relevant Prussian regulations regarding unit markings, beginning with the 1877 ones, the Vorschrift über das Bezeichnen und Numeriren der in den händen der Kommandobehörden, Truppen und Administrationen befindlichen, resp. für den Fall einer Mobilmachung bereit zu haltenden Waffen

or:

"Regulations for identifying [or denoting] and numbering those weapons currently in the charge of command authorities, troop units and administrations, in the event of a mobilization”

I have no idea how far I will get with this, partly because the original document is printed in Wurzberger script, but mainly because it is over 40 years since I have really been in a German environment (apart from Oktober Fest at the Embassy here!)! And so any corrections (including any spelling mistakes in the transcripts) are welcome and will be much appreciated, but let's have a go with p.45, Section I. BUT, note that in the original document they have the sub-sections indicated by the letters a-d within brackets, but if you try to do that here you get a symbol for the letter b within a bracket and a copyright symbol for a c within a bracket (MODS, why is that so??) and so I have used the numbers 1-4 for the sub-sections... I have used the Greek 'beta' and that seems to work!

"I. Zahlen und Buchstabenstempel

Zum Numeriren und Bezeichnen der Waffen nach Anleitung der weiter folgenden Vorschrift sind nachstehende Zahle= und Buchstabenstempel erforderlich:

a) ein Saß Satz Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 2,1 mm (0,08”)

β) ein Saß Satz Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm (0,12”)

c) die erforderlichen Stempel mit römischen Zahlen in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm (0,12”)

d) die erforderlichen Buchstabenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm (0,12”)

Diese Stempel sind nach Maßgabe des alljährlich erscheinenden Preisverzeichnisses aus einer Gewehrfabrik zu beziehen, dürfen nur allein zum Bezeichnen und Numeriren der Waffen und des Zubehörs verwendet werden und befinden sich stets in Berwahrsam Vehrwarsam der für die Instandhaltung der Waffen verantwortlichen Behörde, von welcher sie, wenn Waffen oder Theile gestempelt werden müssen, jedesmal an den Büchsenmacher verabfolgt werden."

"I. The Stamps for Numbers and Letters

For the numbering and the identifying the weapons [of the units] the following instructions on number- and letter-stamps are necessary/required:

1) a sunken number set [0-9] of [Arabic] numeral dies in the text height of 2.1 mm (

2) a sunken number stamp set [0-9] of [Arabic] numeral dies in the text height of 3.1 mm (0.12")

3) [when necessary] a stamp with Roman numerals in the text height of 4.2 mm (0.12")

4) [when necessary] a letter stamp in the text height of 4.2 mm (0.12")

These stamps can be purchased from a weapons factory according to the annually published Price List, and must be used only to designate and number weapons and accessories and must be in the custody of the person authorised as responsible for the maintenance of the weapons, from whom it must be issued to the gunsmith when weapons need to be stamped."

Here endeth Section I... Phew...That was harder than I thought because we must never forget that the verb at the very end of the sentence is to be put... But, that's 50% of p. 45 out of the way, only another 23.5 pages to go (less if I leave out the lengthy bit at the end about marking M.1871 bayonets!)

In the meantime, I hope one or two of you find it useful and/or interesting... Not the least because - if I have understood it correctly - these regulations about unit marks only apply in the event of a mobilization...

Trajan

EDITED: tidied up the text and corrected misreadings thanks to Apwright

[jscott]

Interesting, thanks Trajan.

So does this mean imperial german bayonets were only marked in the event of a mobilisation, or that the procedures you described were used following mobilisation (and bayonets were marked a different way at other times)?

If the former, then thats very interesting indeed.

Cheers, J

[trajan]

Interesting, thanks Trajan.

So does this mean imperial german bayonets were only marked in the event of a mobilisation, or that the procedures you described were used following mobilisation (and bayonets were marked a different way at other times)?

If the former, then thats very interesting indeed.

Cheers, J

I'm awaiting a comment from a native German-speaker on this reading of that resp. für den Fall einer Mobilmachung as I admit that I was rather puzzled by it! As it is, I was so puzzled that I discussed this specific phrase with one of my Dutch-mates who is a German-speaker and who is also ex-Dutch regular army, and he agreed that "in the event of a mobilization" is correct, i.e., weapons are to be marked on mobilization. (He also thought it a bit odd in the sense that this meant that any enemy could identify a unit on the opposite German front line by just looking at the bayonet scabbard worn by a German POW - a useful piece of military intelligence in wartime!)

Oddly enough, IIRC - but I don't have time to check right now, so don't quote me on or hold me to this - I think the 1909 regulations say something similar, although I also think that in those they also allow for the weapons of certain units (e.g., the Guards) to be marked in peace time as well.

Julian

[trajan]

Still hoping for a native German speaker to check the above, but a lunch-time search through German Google got me to a webpage on 'Luger' pistol markings according to the 1909 Regulations and which states that:

"Bereits am 9. Februar 1912 informierte das Kriegsministerium alle Generalkommandos und die maßgeblichen Inspektionen über das Ende der Handwaffenstempelungen" (No, of course there is no reference to back this up... )

I would translate that along the lines of:

"Already on [by] 9 February 1912 the War Ministry informed all General Commands and the relevant Inspections [Inspection Departments?] about the ending of the stamping of [unit marks on] hand weapons."

So, that seems pretty decisive. Weapons were being marked up to 1912 - but I must still check the 1909 Regulations about what they actually say there about when the marks were to be applied...

Oh, and the same German webpage indicates that as late as 2 November 1916, weapons were still being stamped with unit marks, and so the Kriegsministerium issued an order that day to stop doing this - there is a reference in this case, so I'll try and find it!

TTFN,

Julian

[Militarytorch]

Trajan asked me to put these unit marks pictures here.

This is a M1879 Reisrevolver made by Mauser.

[trajan]

Thanks Militarytorch,

Getting ready for work, and so a quick reply and ID - please bear in mind though that I know very little about Bavarian markings, which do vary in some ways from the Prussian, etc., ones!

OK, so this was first marked as: 'B.2.A.r.1.9', which would be (I think!) the Bavarian 2nd Artillery (Regiment), Reitende (Abteilung) 1st (company/battery), weapon 8. I am suggesting a Retiende battalion for that small 'r' as a quick search on German Google indicates that certain of the Bavarian Field Artillery units had one of these. The usual make-up of an artillery regiment was - I think - 3 regular battalions plus in some cases a horse artillery battalion (the Reitende Abteilung) that was supposed to operate with the Bavarian Cavalry Division.

The later marking, 'B.6.A.6.51', is superficially at least (in my opinion) for the Bavarian 6th Artillery (Regiment), 6th (Battery), Weapon 51 - I say 'superficially' because it to me to be a high weapon number for a single battery.

TTFN,

Trajan

[trajan]

I fully expect to get shot down in flames any minute/hour, whatever, on those identifications - at least that means there will be a correction!

In the meantime I am thinking that 'B.2.A.r.1.9' = Kgl. Bayer. 2. Feldartillerie-Regiment Horn, 1.Reitende (batterie), waffe 9: their history is at http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/KB_FAR_2

I have never come across these 'Reitende Bataillonen' before but It seems that some of these regiments had up to three of these: e.g., the Kgl. Bayer. 5. Feldartillerie-Regiment König Alfons XIII. von Spanien - see http://www.omaha-beach.org/Deutsche-Version/Landau/5.bayer.Feld.Art.Regt.html According to that web-page, if I have understood it correctly, then each of these 'rider battalions' had 4 guns, 4 munitions' wagons, and 1 service wagon, each of these drawn by 6 horses; each gun having 7 gunners on horseback, along with 6 'gunners' with the service wagon, along with a sanitations officer, and so a total of 160 horses...

I also found this thread that mentions these 'riding battalions' (doing this is somewhat more interesting than what I am supposed to be doing - marking exam-papers!): http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97011 However, post no. 2 there claims that only of these units existed, in that same Kgl. Bayerische 5 Feldartillerie Regiment Konig Alfons XIII Von Spanien, but the web-page I mentioned above says that there were three in 1913.

As for that 'B.6.A.6.51', well this is a weapon marked for the Kgl. Bayer. 6. Feldartillerie-Regiment Prinz Ferdinand von Bourbon, Herzog von Calabrien, whose history is at http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/KB_FAR_6

Julian

[trajan]

Thanks Militarytorch,

... OK, so this was first marked as: 'B.2.A.r.1.9', which would be (I think!) the Bavarian 2nd Artillery (Regiment), Reitende (Abteilung) 1st (company/battery), weapon 8. I am suggesting a Retiende battalion for that small 'r' as a quick search on German Google indicates that certain of the Bavarian Field Artillery units had one of these. The usual make-up of an artillery regiment was - I think - 3 regular battalions plus in some cases a horse artillery battalion (the Reitende Abteilung) that was supposed to operate with the Bavarian Cavalry Division.

The later marking, 'B.6.A.6.51', is superficially at least (in my opinion) for the Bavarian 6th Artillery (Regiment), 6th (Battery), Weapon 51 - I say 'superficially' because it to me to be a high weapon number for a single battery....

I fully expect to get shot down in flames any minute/hour, whatever, on those revolver unit identifications - but if that happens then that means that there will be one or more corrections and so this thread would have achieved one of its objectives, sorting these markings out for all and sundry!

In the meantime I am feeling just a tad more confident on that 'B.2.A.r.1.9' = Kgl. Bayer. 2. Feldartillerie-Regiment Horn, 1.Reitende (batterie), waffe 9: the unit's history is at http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/KB_FAR_2

I have never come across these 'Reitende Bataillonen' before but It seems that some of these field artillery units had up to three of these: e.g., the Kgl. Bayer. 5. Feldartillerie-Regiment König Alfons XIII. von Spanien - see http://www.omaha-beach.org/Deutsche-Version/Landau/5.bayer.Feld.Art.Regt.html According to that web-page, if I have understood it correctly, then each of these 'rider battalions' had 4 guns, 4 munitions' wagons, and 1 service wagon, each of these drawn by 6 horses; each gun had mounted 7 gunners, along with 6 mounted 'gunners' with the service wagon, along with a sanitation officer, and so a total of 160 horses...

I also found this thread that mentions these 'riding battalions' (doing this research is somewhat more interesting than what I am supposed to be doing - marking exam-papers!): http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97011 However, post no. 2 there claims that only of these riding units existed, in that same Kgl. Bayerische 5 Feldartillerie Regiment Konig Alfons XIII Von Spanien, but the web-page I mentioned above says that there were three in 1913.

As for that 'B.6.A.6.51', well this is a weapon marked for the Kgl. Bayer. 6. Feldartillerie-Regiment Prinz Ferdinand von Bourbon, Herzog von Calabrien, whose history is at http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/KB_FAR_6

Julian

[trajan]

The 1877 Regulations, Section II

Here's the next bit of the 1877 Regulations, p.45-46, so all of Section II - corrections to transcript and interpretation thereof eagerly welcomed! To save space I have condensed it all to single line format. And note that I have found a way of getting that B in a brackets problem, which gives you a when posted - you use a Greek letter beta - like this β)! I have also highlighted and underlined those bits of the translation where I was floundering...

p. 45) II Art der Bezeichnung und des Numerirens

Die Waffen müssen folgende Bezeichnung erhalten:

a) den Namen der Behörde, des Truppentheils oder der Administration.

Hierzu sind

Buchstabenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm (0,16”),

Stempel mit römischen Zahlen in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm (0,16”),

p.46) Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm (0,12”) zu verwenden.

β) Daneben und falls der Raum hierzu nicht ausreicht darunter bei der Linien=Infanterie, der Kavallerie, Fuß= und Landwehr = Fuß = Artillerie, den Pionieren und den Unteroffizier=Schulen:

die Nummer der Kompagnie resp. Eskadron u. durch den Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm (0,12”);

bei den Landwehr= und den Garnison=Bataillonen:

die Nummer des Battaillons durch den Stempel mit römischen Zahlen in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm (0,16”);

die Nummer der Kompagnie durch den Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm (0,12”);

Anmerkung: Bei den Waffen der Reserve=Landwehr=Battaillone fällt die Nummer des Bataillions, bei denen de Bezirks-Kommandos die Nummer der Kompagnie fort.

Bei der Feld=Artillerie:

die Art und Nummer der Batteries, resp. die Nummer der Munitions=Kolonne durch den Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm (0,12”)

Beim Train:

die Nummer der Proviant-Kolonne resp. der Intendantur, des Proviant=Amtes, des Lazareths der Postexpedition u. durch den Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm (0,12”)

c) Die laufende Nummer der waffe durch den Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 2,1 mm (0,08”)

[Die laufende Nummer hat fortzubleiben, wenn von einer Waffenamt nur ein Examplar bei einer Beöhorde u. etatsmäßig ist]

Außerdem

d) sämmtliche Schußwaffen M./71 und Zündnadelwaffen: die Jahreszahl der ersten Empfangnahme durch den Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 2,1 mm (0.08”).

Anmerkung: Die Bezeichnung der Waffen für die Belagerungs=Artillerie cfr. Sub IV.II, der Neuformationen und Landsturmtruppen su. VI.

p.45) "II The Type of [Identifying] Marking and Numbers

The weapons must receive the following markings:

a) the name of the authority, the military unit, or the administration [they belong to].

For this purpose [use],

Letters stamped in the text height of 4.2 mm (0.16 "),

Stamps with Roman numerals in the text height of 4.2 mm (0.16 "),

p.46) Number stamps in the text height of 3.1 mm (0.12 ").

β) In addition - and if there is not enough space, then on a line below - for the Line Infantry, Cavalry, Foot- and Landwehr-Foot-Artillery, the Pioneers, and the Unteoffizier [NCO] schools:

the number of the company or the respective Squadron using the number stamp in the text height of 3.1 mm (0.12 ");

For the Landwehr- and Garrison-batallions:the number of the battalion with a stamp with Roman numerals in the text height of 4.2 mm (0.16 ");

the number of the company with a number stamp with a text height of 3.1 mm

Note: with regard to the weapons of the Reserve-Landwehr-Battalions instead of the number of the Battalion, use the number of the company district commands.

For the field-artillery:

the type and number of the Battery, or respectively the number of the Munitions train using the number stamp with the text height of 3.1 mm (0.12 " );

For the [supply] train:

the number of the provisions column respectively the commissariat , the provisions department, the hospital, the post expedition, with the number stamp in the text height font of 3.1 mm (0.12 " )

c) The serial number of the weapon with the number stamp with the text height of 2.1 mm

[The serial number is not to be avoided if there is only a single example [of the weapon] and money is short]

Also

d) All M.71 rifles and Zündnadelwaffen [needle-rifles]: the year they were first received for service use, using a number stamp with a text height of 2.1 mm (0.08 ").

Note: For the identifying mark of the weapons for the siege artillery – see Section IV.II; for the [weapons of] the new formations and the Landsturm troop, see Section VI."

Julian

EDITED: added title to page.

[trajan]

Our GWF member Apwright has corrected me in a PM on one point I had quite wrong in the above transcript in post 45 and thus my interpretation of that (and happy have any more corrections mate!).

What I was reading in post 45, Section I, as 'Saß' for 'Sunken' is actually 'Satz', and so my reading 'a sunken number stamp' is really 'a set [0-9] of [Arabic] number stamps [numeral dies]'.

Adrian also kindly informed me that my reading in that same post of "Berwahrsam" as perhaps an older version of modern German Verwahrsam is in fact Verwahrsam in the original text... I had mistakenly read the capital V as a B... (Hey, that brings us back to the old B=V transposition that cunning linguists love to talk about - but not here!)

Thanks Adrian!

Julian

[trajan]

The 1877 Regulations, Section III

And for those (few) of you eagerly awaiting the next instalment on these ( ), well, pp 47-49, Section III, is all about where to put the markings, and so I will simply summarise that.

p.47): Section III.A has where to put the markings on the M.71 rifle and the needle-gun.

pp.47-48): Section III.B has where to put the markings on pistols

pp.48-49): Section III.C has where to put the markings on 'Blanken waffen', or 'edged weapons' (swords, sabres, and bayonets)

For bayonet people, no news to you that these markings have to be: 'Auf der inneren Seite der Parirstange und der inneren Seite des Mundblechs', and so 'On the inner side of the crossguard and of the locket (or throat-piece, if you wish)'.

However, p.49): Section III.D. is "Die Bajonett= und haubbajonettscheide: auf der ãußern Seite des Mundblechhafens – der Lãnge noch – wie die blanken Waffen"

Which I would translate as: 'The scabbards for bayonets and haubbajonett (i.e., hirschfanger type bayonets): on the outer side of the frog stud - lengthways - [in] the same [style] as [used on] the edged weapon'

I am translating Mundblechhafens here as ‘frog stud’ because in German articles on Roman weapons the Mundblechhafen is what we would call in English the 'scabbard slide', the metal slider thing that attached a scabbard to a Roman soldier's sword belt (no frogs!).

I could be entirely wrong.

But in the light of that I am now wondering about what SS showed us on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208823&page=2 post 39. This is the frog stud of a SG98 scabbard marked '8.K.85' which SS thinks is for '8.Kompagnie Waffe Nr.85', adding: “These are secondary markings for internal purposes, as they are not sized correctly as per the official regulations”.

Well, might it be an official marking, and be for '8.kommando/kriegstaffe Waffe 85'? I'll let somebody else do the work on whether there was an 8.Kommando or an 8.kriegstaffe! Well, I honestly don't know - but as I have pointed out before there are enough examples to proves that rule, about unit markings always being sized and arranged according to the regulations!

Anyway, that's all for now, and over the next few days, slowly, on to pp. 49-66, and the 16 sub-sections of Section IV, Beispeile der Zeichnung (No, we do NOT have an Easter holiday here...!!!).

Julian

EDITED: corrected the title

[trajan]

p.49): Section III.D. is "Die Bajonett= und haubbajonettscheide: auf der ãußern Seite des Mundblechhafens – der Lãnge noch – wie die blanken Waffen"

Which I would translate as: 'The scabbards for bayonets and haubbajonett (i.e., hirschfanger type bayonets): on the outer side of the frog stud - lengthways - [in] the same [style] as [used on] the edged weapon'

I am translating Mundblechhafens here as ‘frog stud’ because in German articles on Roman weapons the Mundblechhafen is what we would call in English the 'scabbard slide', the metal slider thing that attached a scabbard to a Roman soldier's sword belt (no frogs!).

But in the light of that I am now wondering about what SS showed us on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208823&page=2 post 39. This is the frog stud of a SG98 scabbard marked '8.K.85' which SS thinks is for '8.Kompagnie Waffe Nr.85', adding: “These are secondary markings for internal purposes, as they are not sized correctly as per the official regulations”.

Well, might it be an official marking, and be for '8.kommando/kriegstaffe Waffe 85'? I'll let somebody else do the work on whether there was an 8.Kommando or an 8.kriegstaffe! ...

Frog-stud markings: I have managed to find at least two example of longitudinal frog-stud markings, both on M.71 bayonets/scabbards, and also one on another M.71 with the unit marking arranged horizontally in four lines - so much for following regulations!

That SG98 scabbard frog stud marked '8.K.85': One other possibility for the 'K' is 'Korps', but that aside, some support for S>S> reading of the mark as '8.Kompagnie Waffe Nr.85' might be found in how Carter interpreted an 'unidentified marking' reading '4.K.216', which he says 'probably refers to the 4.Kompagnie Waffe Nr.216'.

[trajan]

This is a nice set of markings that turned up in a G**gle search - an old sale (2000) and so I have not been able to find out or contact the owner (see below). It's a W/74, M.71, by Coulaux & C., with a crossed-out marking on the crossguard that has been further obscured by grinding...

The scabbard was originally marked '62.R.11.115', for '3. Oberschlesisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.62, 11 Kompagnie, Waffe 115', but that has been crossed out and replaced with 'U.3.125', which is presumably for Unteroffizierschule, 3 Kompagnie, Waffe 125'. However, the 1877 regulations certainly state that a Unteroffizierschule stamp should include the initial letter of the relevant school, e.g. 'U.P.' = 'Unteroffizierschule Potsdam'...

Even so, nice markings! And a useful pointer to how these things could have gone out of service use into these NCO schools. And if the present owner sees this, let me know and my apologies are here!

[trajan]

Found this example on the web , on W****point, for a cancelled longitudinally marked frog stud on a M.71 scabbard. The crossguard of the bayonet the scabbard came with read '87.R.R.2.128', and so if it is a pre-1909 regulation marking, then it's the 1.Nassauisches Infanterie-Regiment (Reserve) Nr.87. BUT, if done after the 1909 regulations, then I think it's the 1.Nassauisches Infanterie-Regiment (Recruiting Reserve) Nr.87. The locket has a new making reading '168.R.16.97', which is 1.Ober-Elsässiches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.167 over an obliterated marking.

I can't make out the longitudinal frog stud marking... But evidently one was there! Also, I haven't checked the 1909 regulations yet, but IIRC, I don't think they allow for longitudinal frog stud markings, only crossguard and locket markings. The main point is, though, that the 1877 Regulations do seem to have allowed for frog stud ('Mundblechhafens?) markings.

[trajan]

I found this listing of Bavarian Regimental unit markings on: http://www.bayerischewaffen.de/ewaffen.htm

Click on the link there for 'Bavarian Regimental Markings', read the text in that and click on the link 'der pdf-Datei "trstemp.pdf" - that will bring you to a list of about 18 pages which seems to be an accurate one - but I know very little about the Bavarian markings

Trajan

[trajan]

Our friend and mate Sawdoc has just sent me photographs of a load of luverly bayonets he has recently picked up (some that would make even SS's eyes water!). Among them was this nice unit marking, which he has allowed me to post here. It's on a 98/05 leather scabbard, '28.P.4.59', and it does show nicely the different sizes involved in these markings as per regulations!

Well, '28.P.4.59' is for the 2. Brandenburgisches Pionier-Bataillon Nr.28, and is Company 4, weapon 59. The history of the unit is to be found at http://genwiki.genealogy.net/PB_28 and if one follows the links then we discover that after WWI began, this company was amalgamated with a Garde Pionier Bataillon to become the Pionier-Regiment Nr. 31 - and their history is here: http://genwiki.genealogy.net/PR_31

Nice find Alec... BTW, did I tell you it is my birthday soon?

[trajan]

... In the meantime I am feeling just a tad more confident on that 'B.2.A.r.1.9' = Kgl. Bayer. 2. Feldartillerie-Regiment Horn, 1.Reitende (batterie), waffe 9: the unit's history is at http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/KB_FAR_2

I have never come across these 'Reitende Bataillonen' before but It seems that some of these field artillery units had up to three of these: e.g., the Kgl. Bayer. 5. Feldartillerie-Regiment König Alfons XIII. von Spanien - see http://www.omaha-beach.org/Deutsche-Version/Landau/5.bayer.Feld.Art.Regt.html According to that web-page, if I have understood it correctly, then each of these 'rider battalions' had 4 guns, 4 munitions' wagons, and 1 service wagon, each of these drawn by 6 horses; each gun had mounted 7 gunners, along with 6 mounted 'gunners' with the service wagon, along with a sanitation officer, and so a total of 160 horses...

I also found this thread that mentions these 'riding battalions' (doing this research is somewhat more interesting than what I am supposed to be doing - marking exam-papers!): http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97011 However, post no. 2 there claims that only of these riding units existed, in that same Kgl. Bayerische 5 Feldartillerie Regiment Konig Alfons XIII Von Spanien, but the web-page I mentioned above says that there were three in 1913.

Well, I have managed to track down some similar markings to that 'B.2.A.r.1.9' shown in post 58, thanks to the Bavarian Unit markings webpage I refer to above (post 68). This lists:

'B.2.Ar.1.33.' = Bayerische 2. Feld-Artillerie-Rgt. “Horn” (Würzburg) 1, reitende Batterie, Waffe 33, this mark being on a sabre M/1813.

'B.2.A.r.3.65.' = Bayerische 2. Feld-Artillerie-Rgt. “Horn” (Würzburg), 3. Reitende Batterie, Waffe 65, weapon not specified

I feel a bit happier now militarytorch, lucky owner of that revolver in post 58!

Trajan

[trajan]

... this was first marked as: 'B.2.A.r.1.9', which would be (I think!) the Bavarian 2nd Artillery (Regiment), Reitende (Abteilung) 1st (company/battery), weapon 8. I am suggesting a Retiende battalion for that small 'r' as a quick search on German Google indicates that certain of the Bavarian Field Artillery units had ... a horse artillery battalion (the Reitende Abteilung) that was supposed to operate with the Bavarian Cavalry Division.

Slowly working my way through the next part of the 1877 regulations, which I hope to post later today or tomorrow, and lo and behold! - 'r' (lower case) is indeed 'reitend'!

Trajan

[trajan]

The 1877 Regulations section IV Introductory paragraph

Slowly but surely getting through these in my spare time... Herewith the first bit of Section IV, which is essentially an introduction and explanation of the abbreviations to be used, and which is followed by examples thereof, which will come later. As before, I am very happy to be corrected where necessary, and would especially welcome a better correction of my interpretation of the first in the S category, 'S. Schützen'.

Note that I have used Word Blackadder ITC Blackadder ITC font for the German abbreviations given as 'script' rather than 'Latin' letters in the text, and in the translation I have italicised these

"p. 49) IV Beispiele der Bezeichnung

Vorbemerkung: Zur Beziechnung der Behörde resp. des Truppentheils dient mit wenigen Ausnahmen der Anfangsbuchstabe des Namens derselben. In solchen Fällen, wo dieser Buchstabe für verschiedene leicht zu verwechselnde Namen der gleiche ist, entscheidet die Schriftart über seine Bedeutung.

z[um] B[eispeil].

A. Artillerie, Alxeander[sic] (Garde=Grenadier=Regiment}, Amt (Proviant=, Bäckerei=), Auditeure, Abteilung, Arbeiter= (Kompagnie), Ausfall= (Batterie);

B. Brigade, Bezirk, Bäckerei, Brücken= (Train), Batterie, Betriebs, Biebrich, Battaillon;

B. Besatzungs, Belagerungs= (Train);

C. Cavallerie, Colonne, Coblenz;

d.C. [Garde] du Corps;

D. Division, Direktion, Dragoner, Depot;

E. Ersatz, Eisenbahn, Eskadron, Ettlingen;

E. Etappe;

F. Feld, Franz (Garde=Grenadier=Regiment), Füsilier, Festungs, Fuß, Fuhrpark=Kolonne;

G. Garde, Gensdarmerie, Grenadier, Gesichtlichkeit, Garnison;

G. General;

H. Haupt= (Quartier), Husaren, Hessisch (Großherzoglich);

H. Handwerker;

İ. Infanterie, Intendantur, Ingenieur;

J. Inspektion;

p.50)

J. Jäger, Jülich;

K. Kommando, Kaiser, Kürassier, Kriegstaff;

L. Landwehr, Lazareth;

L. Landsturm;

M. Munitions=Kolonne, Militair = (Schießschule);

O. Oberkommando (einer Armee);

P. Pionier, Proviant, Posen, Potsdam, Pferde= (Depot);

P. Post;

Q. Quartier (haupt=);

R. Regiment;

R. Reserve, Reiter= (Regiment);

r. reitend;

S. Schützen, Schanzzeug, Sanitäts, Stab, Spandau, Schießschule (Militair=);

s. schwer;

St. Stabswache;

T. Train, Telegraphen;

U. Ulan, Unteroffizierschule;

v. Versuchs=Kompagnie (der Artillerie=Prüfungs=Kommission);

W. Weißenfels;

· Stellvertrentend

Die römischen Zahlen werden angewendet zur Bezeichning

Der Armee – in Verbindung mit O.

Des Armee-Korps,

Der Etappen-Inspektion – in

Verbindung mit E.I

Der Militair=Eisenbahn=Direktion- in Verbindung mit E.D.Der Militair=Betriebs=Inspektion- in Verbindung mit E.B.I.

Der Landwehr= und der Garnison=

Bataillone - in Verbindung mit L. resp. G.B."

p. 49) IV: Examples of the marking

Preliminary remark: the marking of the authorities responsible for the individual units will, with few exceptions, use the initial letter of the name of the same unit. In such cases where this letter might easily be mistaken for a different [unit] name, the style of the text [stamped letter] will indicate its meaning.

E[xempli].g[ratia].

A. Artillery, Alexander (Guard-Grenadier-Regiment [= Kaiser Alexander Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 1]), Office (Provisions, Bakers), Legal office, Department/Section, Work- (Company), Mobile/sortie ([artillery]battery [=? Reitende Battalion?]).

B. Brigade, District, bakery, bridgingtrain, [artillery-]battery, Biebrich [Wiesbaden, Königlich Preußische Unteroffiziersschule], battalion;

B. Occupation, siege-(train);

C. Cavalry, Column, Koblenz [Rheinland-Pfalz military base];

d.C. [Regiment der] Gardes du Corps

D. Division, Directorate, dragoons, Depot;

E. Replacement, railway, squadron, Ettlingen [Baden Württemburg, military base]

E. Staging area.

F. Field, Franz (Guard Grenadier Regiment [= Kaiser Franz Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 2]), Fusilier, Fortress, foot, vehicle park - column;

G. Guard, gendarmerie, Grenadier, historical, garrison

G. General

H. Head-(quarters), hussars, Hessian (Grand Duchy [of]);

H. Craftsmen [artificers]

İ. Infantry, quartermaster, engineer

I. Inspectorate

p.50)

J. Jäger, Jülich [Nord Rhein Westfalen military base]

K. Command[er], Kaiser, Cuirassier, War Staff;

L. Landweher, Hospital;

L. Landsturm;

M. Munitions column, Military (shooting school);

O. High command (of an army);

P. Pioneer, Provisions, Posen [Pozen, Poland, military base], Horse (depot);

P. Post

Q. (Head-)quarters;

R. Regiment;

R. Reserve, mounted (regiment);

r. ridden/mounted;

S. Guard [?as in headquarters guard?], entrenching tools, medical, staff, Spandau [Berlin, military base], shooting school (Military);

s. heavy

St. Staff guard

T. Train [as in supply train], telegraph

U. Uhlan, NCO school

v. Testing company (Artillery- examination commission)

W. Weisenfels [Sachsen-Anhalt, Unteroffizierschule für Füsiliere]

· Temporary

The Roman numerals are used to identify

The Army – when combined with O.

The Army Corps,

The Inspectorates when combined with E.I.

The Military railway directorate – when combined with E.D.

The Military operations Inspectorate – when combined with E.B.I.

The Landwehr and the garrison battalions – when combined with respectively

L. [and] G.B

All for now... Got to bring a couple of other threads up to date as you enjoy your easter eggs!

Trajan

[jscott]

Trajan, here is another s98 from the vaults - this time 1903 dated, Erfurt manufactured and marked to IR 162.

[jscott]

And some excellent photographs and regimental history for the IR162 to be found here.

http://gottmituns.net/tag/1916/page/2/

Cheers, J

[trajan]

Very nice indeed! Sigh... Marked ones are very rare over here...

What's the scabbard marking? Isn't there a number before the visible '3'?

Trajan