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Remembered Today:

German Unit Bayonet Markings


trajan

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My face turns red, Dear Steve...

Unfortunately I don´t have more infos to that unit. I don´t know, which unit did form it and I don´t know where they were located.

These detachments were formed since march 1915. Each detachment had a strength of 100 men.

So I´d say, the second number is NOT a company, better a platoon or section.

The "Railyway troop´s book of honour" writes:

"The most interesting special formation of the railway troops is probably the Underwater Cutting Detachment or U.S.A. for short.
Their work consisted entirely of cutting up the underwater bridge debris, which had to be cleared away due to flood congestion and ice drift in order not to endanger the newly built bridges. Autogenous cutting, a process for cutting metal, especially iron, and burning it away with oxygen, can be assumed to be known. When cutting under water, a special oxygen line enables the oxygen-hydrogen flame to burn under water in a strong flame by creating a cavity with compressed air and keeping the water away from the flame. Ignition under water takes place by magneto-electric means. The work can of course only be carried out by divers who are standing in the water in the often ice-cold and torrential current, where they run the risk of being dragged along or losing their air supply hose. The divers are also constantly threatened by the collapse of the cut bridge debris, especially with large truss bridges, to be injured. During the war, seven underwater cutting sections were set up."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

Checking the units will be a puzzle...

I have found out, that the USA 4 was in 1918 near Wyszkow (55 km northeast of Warsaw)

The USA 1 (bavarian) was 1916 in France, 1917 in Rumania, 1918 in Courland and Ukraine

Edited by The Prussian
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Andy my dear friend , to even know about so rare type of units, a few hundred specialty troops out of 251 Divisions out of many Armies was like a needle in a hay stack, but you made it look simple.

 

Only  great researchers make the near impossible look simple. Thanks again, Great job, info and pics.  Steve

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Thanks a lot, Steve! There are a few postcards with stamps of those units in the electronic bay. But the sellers charges about 30€.

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Ooops... I just bought a cheaper one...:whistle:

It will arrive next week. Here is the scan from the bay.

USA I

Militär-Eisenbahn-Direktion 4 Warschau.

There were different MED during the war.

I. Lille

II. Sedan

III. Hirson

IV. Warsaw

V. Vilna

VI. Brest-Litovsk

VII. Semendria (Nisch)

VIII. Schaulen

IX. Bucharest

X.  Craiova

XI: Dobrudja (Dorpat)

 

s-l1600.jpg

Edited by The Prussian
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Ouch, that is a hefty post card at €30.

 

That must be a fascinating hobby to have actual post cards from the Great War, even better that you can read them, delving into the Personal aspect of that war. 
 

I can imagine you, after a nice dinner, sitting back in your favorite chair/couch studying one of these post cards, letting your mind drift, trying to put yourself in the card, story, what the writer/ soldier must have felt, tired, angry or scared but put on a brave front to be kind in the post cards home to family, wives. The better your imagination, the more real your vision can be!? Take care Andy

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Yes, but don´t forget the wine...

I have some problems with those cards. I am german but I´m not able to read those old scripts... Sometimes I can, mostly not...

I am 52, but I haven´t learned these old hand-scripts in school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sütterlin

or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurrent

Did you read #504?

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9 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hello!

Unterwasser-Schneide-Abteilung (Underwater cutting detachment)

We had seven detachments. So here: USA, 7th Detachement, 3rd company, 9th weapon.

They were among the railway pioneers; their task was to separate underwater bridge debris from destroyed bridges, which had to be cleared away due to flood damming and ice drift so as not to endanger the newly built bridges.

 

 

Unterwasser-Schneide-Abteilung I - Kopie.jpg

Unterwasser-Schneide-Abteilung I.jpg

Dear Prussian,

I am paying my respects to you. 

Regards

D. 

Edited by zuluwar2006
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Nice piece with interesting war period unit, from the german text of Feldgrau forum is possible the 39 is not delivered with a dot?, as the info speaks about 100 man in one Abteilung. 

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Let´s wait. I think there is a dot

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21 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hello!

Unterwasser-Schneide-Abteilung (Underwater cutting detachment)

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Thanks for posting this, Demitrios and you Andy for being most likely the only one who could solve the mystery, also in record time and with photo’s for “ Icing on the Cake” so to speak. 

 

Indeed, a remarkable ID and a remarkable photograph also! I freely confess I never would have known where to start with that one!

 

Julian

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Yes I saw #504,  eleven small units, any country, both sides, a standard company I think had over a hundred men, rare indeed. Great to see the list with the Cities that we’re based at, the back of card with two stamping is great also . At the arms shows Germany, have you ever put up a display of your post cards?

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  I wish I hug ad a USA marked 98/05!!!

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15 minutes ago, Steve1871 said:

Yes I saw #504,  eleven small units, any country, both sides, a standard company I think had over a hundred men, rare indeed. Great to see the list with the Cities that we’re based at, the back of card with two stamping is great also . At the arms shows Germany, have you ever put up a display of your post cards?

No no... those eleven "units" are only the Militär-Eisenbahn-Direktionen, not the USAs

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  • 1 month later...

I just got 3 Chassepot bayonets (no German modifications, I think...) and an unmatched scabbard with German markings: 69.L.II.1.221. 

 

After reviewing this thread, I read that as Landsturm 2nd Batallion, 69th Regiment, 1st Kompanie, weapon no. 221??? 

 

Below that remarking is the original serial crossed out: R43203

 

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Edited by iomegazippy
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This is a very detailed thread so my apologies if I have missed the answer to the query I am about to post.  As my query relates to a possible unit marking I thought it best to post here rather than start a new topic.

 

I recently acquired an Alex Coppel (Solinger)1917 98/05 bayonet with a Willhelm II cypher on the spine.  

 

The spine, crosspiece and pommel all have a matching proof mark.

 

Also on the cross piece (rear side) are stamped the numbers "1920".  I suspect this is a unit, batch or serial number reference (as opposed to the year 1920).  I was hoping a GWF member may be able to clarify?

 

Also interested to know the significance of the "0" on the underside of the spine.

 

The scabbard I presume is not a match to this bayonet.  It has no proof marks or manufacturer details that I can find  - only a serial number "G03697".  Any feedback on the scabbard also welcomed. 

 

Full image.jpg

Ricasso.jpg

Spine top.jpg

Cross piece 1920 number.jpg

Cross piece cypher.jpg

Pommell.jpg

Spine underneath.jpg

Scababrd close up.jpg

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25 minutes ago, ghch1555 said:

This is a very detailed thread so my apologies if I have missed the answer to the query I am about to post.  As my query relates to a possible unit marking I thought it best to post here rather than start a new topic.

 

I recently acquired an Alex Coppel (Solinger)1917 98/05 bayonet with a Willhelm II cypher on the spine.  

 

The spine, crosspiece and pommel all have a matching proof mark.

 

Also on the cross piece (rear side) are stamped the numbers "1920".  I suspect this is a unit, batch or serial number reference (as opposed to the year 1920).  I was hoping a GWF member may be able to clarify?

 

Also interested to know the significance of the "0" on the underside of the spine.

 

The scabbard I presume is not a match to this bayonet.  It has no proof marks or manufacturer details that I can find  - only a serial number "G03697".  Any feedback on the scabbard also welcomed. 

 

Hi!

 

A nice looking piece! It is as you say a 1917-made bayonet, the '1920' mark on the crossguard indicates it was kept and marked for use by the Reichswehr in the post-war Weimar period. So, a nice bayonet selected for continued use.

 

The scabbard mark? I am not certain about that. Not identifiably German WW1 or Weimar period... Perhaps it came from one of the S.98/05 bayonets given after 1918 to Poland or Belgium?

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Thankyou.  This bayonet appears to have been re-blued so that would perhaps fit with its post WWI use by the Reichswehr.  Do you know if they were usually reconditioned in this manner?

 

I bought it at an auction that had a lot of militaria, mostly Third Reich WWII in nature - which may also explain the conenction to this item's post WWI service life.

 

I have a 1915 Wilkinson p.1907 bayonet as well - that was later reissued in 1923 and has a high probabiltiy to have had WWII service.

 

So by chance in aquiring a British and German bayonet for WWI, I have also acquired two specimens that have a service life past WWI.

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When there were something else on crossguard of the refurbished Weimar period S98/05 it was gone or is not visible on these pictures.

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13 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Scabbard is mostly argentinian M1909 Faschinenmesser from serial number and hook shape. 

 

Very well-spotted Andy! I have not come across one of those before!

 

Julian

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Thankyou to both Trajan and Andy for your comments and further info.  

 

Can either of you speculate as to how this bayonet and scabbard may have come together?  The most likely explanation I guess is that the have simply been paired up by a collector here in Australia  (or even by the auction house that I bought it from). I assume it is unlikely the bayonet was actually in Argentina?

 

Also interested in any feedback as to how common re-blueing was for bayonets reissued for the Reichswehr after WWI.

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1 hour ago, ghch1555 said:

...Can either of you speculate as to how this bayonet and scabbard may have come together?  The most likely explanation I guess is that the have simply been paired up by a collector here in Australia  (or even by the auction house that I bought it from). I assume it is unlikely the bayonet was actually in Argentina?

 

Also interested in any feedback as to how common re-blueing was for bayonets reissued for the Reichswehr after WWI.

 

Who knows who did the pairing... Some years back I bought a GB P.1907 HQ that was in an Ottoman M.1890 scabbard (or the other way round!)... I agree, I doubt the bayonet would have made it to Argentina

 

My understanding is that all WW1 bayonets used by the Reichwehr, police, and others after 1918 were blued - but Andy is the best source for information on this - and a wide range of bayonet matters!

 

Julian 

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As mentioned by You already it was paired with argentine scabbard probably postwar as on collector market avialable, i assume argentinian saled the items in 80ies, about the Artilery Machete there was a discussion on one forum few days ago, where is pictured a argentinian soldier with this type of weapon in Falkland war(1982), so still in use after 70 years. I assume the time of similar items arg.M91/M09 bayonets were saled to sample already in Frankonia catalog in early 70ies.

About blueing of S98/05 in Weimar there exist exact timeframe and manuals for refurbishment, i assume the 1932 was started with refurbishments. The S98/05 were still used in WW2 even mainly by second line units, guards, police etc.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 15/10/2014 at 17:16, trajan said:

OK, so I have collated data on just over 100 "M.G." marked bayonets... Interesting - especially the variety in markings and the evidence that some units marked more than others, and/or, the bayonets of those units have survived in modern collections in disproportionate numbers!

The search revealed some shockers that would dismay the likes of those who think that everything was done by the book with regard to markings... E.G. our sceptical antipodean mate in post 27 above... How's about, for example, "M.G.SS.AB.24.17.STAB"? That's for the "Maschinengewehr-Scharfschutzen-Abteilung 24, Waffe 17, Stab", in case you had not worked it out... :thumbsup:

But, back to Jonathan's one - that "3.M.G.77".! I have found two only that come close to it: "1.M.G.92.", on an EB made from a Chinese M.1907; and "3.M.G.94" on an EB 146. My feeling, after looking at all the others, is that the armourer missed out a final "K", so that it should be "3.M.G.K.94", OR, he missed out an "R" after the initial number, and so "3.R.M.G.94". So, take your pick!

For obvious reasons, I won't present all the data here, but most of these "M.G." marked bayonets are the short ones, a reasonable number are Ersatz, but I have recorded six 98/05's (including Jonathan's), one being a scabbard marking...

Enjoy!

Trajan

5ac8e82ea855d_MGSS3.jpg.576f95a6e77116b8fd4ff66d49ca0fcb.jpg5ac8e83aa3f38_MGSS2.jpg.5e557553a6b27816372ef994e1aba882.jpg5ac8e845b7b8e_MGSS1.jpg.ffb003ed8b4e78ea4a5a8c4ca29ef550.jpg5ac8e84819c71_MGSS5.jpg.4d736503f64254f6bbf69df394c9563b.jpg

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