German Unit Bayonet Markings

[trajan]

On 4/21/2018 at 09:07, zuluwar2006 said:

hello friends

here are some 98/05 unit markings,

hope you enjoy them

regards, D.

another two 98/05 with unit markings

 

Heck, where to start with all of these! Too many to do right now! If you need ID's, then reply to this post and I'll get down to it in two weeks when teaching finishes. But I will say that 98/05's are rarerly marked after 1915 or so, and I will assume these are 1914 or earlier.

 

Wonder when and why - and how! - the blade point of the first was converted into a can-opener / bottle opener...

[trajan]

On 4/21/2018 at 09:18, zuluwar2006 said:

 

Again, too much to comment on right now - except for this one  - and if original, very, very rare...

 

It looks to be either a Pionier Faschinenmesser 71/98 or an S.98/02. Carter records a mere five examples of the first, all made by ERFURT/V.C.SCHILLING, and all marked for the Ostasiatische Pionier Kompagnie or the Ostasiatische Pionier 3 Kompagnie. It should weight between 680 - 698 gr., and have 75 single teeth. The examples Carter knew of for the first unit were marked "O.P.23' and "O.P.31", so this could be one of those, especially with what looks to be a W/98 spine mark... 

 

BUT, it seems to have double teeth, which is what is found on the S.98/02; AND there is no sign of a Ricasso marking, which should be there; ALSO, the ricasso on a PF 71/98 is only slightly wider than the crossgyard, not as wide as what you have here; AND is that a welding mark? But if a S.98/02 - also quite rare - why the apparent W/98 spine mark?

 

Basically, it is a very interesting one and more photographs are needed! Especially of the makers mark - if there is one! 

[trajan]

On 4/21/2018 at 09:21, zuluwar2006 said:

 

Again, far to many to take in at one go and comment on properly - it would take the best part of a day! In future please post seperately!

 

But the selection above are out of the ordinary - e.g., the unit-marked Nagant bayonet; the Wurttemburg marked Gras with the antler simbol; and the unit-marked Lebel 

Edited 5 May , 2018 by trajan

[trajan]

On 4/22/2018 at 13:57, zuluwar2006 said:

Digging my collection, i found and this 98/05.

I bought it from Germany.

Unit markings are from 5th Flieger Abteilung.

From the other side, it has ater the ww1 dress markings??? I do not know.

Intresting bayonet.

Is NOT a dress bayonet.

Mayebe became for this purpose, after the end of ww1.

The markings on blade are erased. Also and on the spine of the blade. Remains a faint W and an imperail stamp.

Regards

D.

 

S.98/05 were not normally issued to Flieger groups - but all officers were supposed to carry 98/05 after they were told in 1915 (I think!) to exchange their swords for these and use the 98/05 instead. I have seen photographs of men wearing a 98/05 with attached symbols on the grips, usually in the form of an elaborate monogram for WR, "Wilhelm Rex", but not one quite like this. However, if I remember correctly, in the post-1918 period, men who had a certain amount of service in the Reichsheer of the Great War and now served with the Reichswehr were allowed to carry their original service weapons instead of the S.84/98, so perhaps this is one of thos?

[trajan]

On 4/25/2018 at 07:25, Steve1871 said:

Another pic for you.very short Reg't marking, guess 5th Army?

 

Need a full length photograph, Steve, when you can.  That is a very high muzzle ring and not immediately clear what it was intended for - and the rivets for the grips are odd...

[zuluwar2006]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

 

Heck, where to start with all of these! Too many to do right now! If you need ID's, then reply to this post and I'll get down to it in two weeks when teaching finishes. But I will say that 98/05's are rarerly marked after 1915 or so, and I will assume these are 1914 or earlier.

 

Wonder when and why - and how! - the blade point of the first was converted into a can-opener / bottle opener...

Hello Trajan

please respond whenever you have time, meanwhile i will photographed more 98/05 unit marked examples from the collection.

Also, all those are marked in war time, not prior 1915.

The 1st, has the blade damaged by a splinter from a bomb explosion mayebe???

Not a can - opener at all!!!!!!

When i bought it, on 2001 in Germany, had and the sheath, which was also damaged at the same point with a large hole, but since then i was young and fullish, i took it and throught it away!!!!

[zuluwar2006]

59 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

Again, too much to comment on right now - except for this one  - and if original, very, very rare...

 

It looks to be either a Pionier Faschinenmesser 71/98 or an S.98/02. Carter records a mere five examples of the first, all made by ERFURT/V.C.SCHILLING, and all marked for the Ostasiatische Pionier Kompagnie or the Ostasiatische Pionier 3 Kompagnie. It should weight between 680 - 698 gr., and have 75 single teeth. The examples Carter knew of for the first unit were marked "O.P.23' and "O.P.31", so this could be one of those, especially with what looks to be a W/98 spine mark... 

 

BUT, it seems to have double teeth, which is what is found on the S.98/02; AND there is no sign of a Ricasso marking, which should be there; ALSO, the ricasso on a PF 71/98 is only slightly wider than the crossgyard, not as wide as what you have here; AND is that a welding mark? But if a S.98/02 - also quite rare - why the apparent W/98 spine mark?

 

Basically, it is a very interesting one and more photographs are needed! Especially of the makers mark - if there is one! 

I think this is a dress 98/05 with O.P. unit marking

When i got time, i will send photos from the manufacturer, is certainly a dress 98/05 bayonet, with a very rare marking off course, Roy had this opinion, very, very rare in any case.

[trajan]

13 minutes ago, zuluwar2006 said:

I think this is a dress 98/05 with O.P. unit marking

When i got time, i will send photos from the manufacturer, is certainly a dress 98/05 bayonet, with a very rare marking off course, Roy had this opinion, very, very rare in any case.

 

Certainly 'odd'. But if RW was happy I am certainly not one to disagree!

 

20 minutes ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Hello Trajan

please respond whenever you have time, meanwhile i will photographed more 98/05 unit marked examples from the collection.

Also, all those are marked in war time, not prior 1915.

The 1st, has the blade damaged by a splinter from a bomb explosion mayebe???

Not a can - opener at all!!!!!!

When i bought it, on 2001 in Germany, had and the sheath, which was also damaged at the same point with a large hole, but since then i was young and fullish, i took it and throught it away!!!!

 

Well, only joking about the can opener! Shell-splinter damage? Certainly could be! Shame about the scabbard...

 

So, these are all 1914 or later? The erason I ask is that I am certainly interested in how long unit-marking continued when it was supposed to end at the outbreak of war. Of course it didn't, but, well, 'German efficiency' and so on...!!!

 

Julian

[zuluwar2006]

4 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

Certainly 'odd'. But if RW was happy I am certainly not one to disagree!

 

 

Well, only joking about the can opener! Shell-splinter damage? Certainly could be! Shame about the scabbard...

 

So, these are all 1914 or later? The erason I ask is that I am certainly interested in how long unit-marking continued when it was supposed to end at the outbreak of war. Of course it didn't, but, well, 'German efficiency' and so on...!!!

 

Julian

Julian,

all are dated fro 1915 and later!! I have and from 1917 dated unit marked examples. I will send you a lot of photos, give me some time to work also, to get some money, otherwise i will start to sell the bayonets!!!!!

regards, D.

[Guest]

Hello ! 

Can someone help me with this inscription  please. 

S.A. 7.2. Laz.W. 

This is Weimar period WuK made bayonet  destroy after Russian captivity 

Thanks for looking.

 

[zuluwar2006]

22 minutes ago, Kometa said:

Hello ! 

Can someone help me with this inscription  please. 

S.A. 7.2. Laz.W. 

This is Weimar period WuK made bayonet  destroy after Russian captivity 

Thanks for looking.

 

FELDSIGNAL - ABTEILUNG

Laz is maybe LAZARETT??????

VERY RARE,

bravo!!!!!!

[Guest]

Hi thank’s I will transfer your congratulation  to the owner. 

But why they put S if mean Field signal ?

Thanks. 

[zuluwar2006]

1 hour ago, Kometa said:

Hi thank’s I will transfer your congratulation  to the owner. 

But why they put S if mean Field signal ?

Thanks. 

S is for signal

A is for FELD

[Guest]

 

honored to be a part of this truly epic dialog!

 

i collect mauser bayonets from all countries, but primarily 30s-40s 84/98s made in solingen. could not pass up a mauser-made mauser 98/05 when it popped up in a low double-digit price range at my new favorite local pawn shop! spine is stamped as expected, this one made in 1916. the scabbard is stamped in several places and is in good condition, the frog however has fallen victim to dry rot.

 

what i am most curious about is the marking on the crossguard; "6. BATT. 5"

 

are there sufficient clues here to place it in a particular unit? i have searched through the pages here and have not found a "format" match for this. any information would be greatly appreciated!

[zuluwar2006]

5 hours ago, fuzzbrite said:

 

honored to be a part of this truly epic dialog!

 

i collect mauser bayonets from all countries, but primarily 30s-40s 84/98s made in solingen. could not pass up a mauser-made mauser 98/05 when it popped up in a low double-digit price range at my new favorite local pawn shop! spine is stamped as expected, this one made in 1916. the scabbard is stamped in several places and is in good condition, the frog however has fallen victim to dry rot.

 

what i am most curious about is the marking on the crossguard; "6. BATT. 5"

 

are there sufficient clues here to place it in a particular unit? i have searched through the pages here and have not found a "format" match for this. any information would be greatly appreciated!

Hello Sir,

we are proud to have you with us.

Your bayonet is a 98/05 "butcher" blade bayonet, from ww1, used by imperial german troops.

this modes is the new model, with plain blade.

Tell us and the date, which is on the spine of the blade, under a gothic "W". 

your unit marking is very rare indeed.

BATT is for Batterie, but usually they marked it as a plain B on the crossguard.

BUT, as regulations are gonne, when you are on war, we can assume that a very gentle armourer, place this unit marking.

A war time unit marking, very rare seen.

Congratulations

Regards, D.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Hello Sir,

we are proud to have you with us.

Your bayonet is a 98/05 "butcher" blade bayonet, from ww1, used by imperial german troops.

this modes is the new model, with plain blade.

Tell us and the date, which is on the spine of the blade, under a gothic "W". 

your unit marking is very rare indeed.

BATT is for Batterie, but usually they marked it as a plain B on the crossguard.

BUT, as regulations are gonne, when you are on war, we can assume that a very gentle armourer, place this unit marking.

A war time unit marking, very rare seen.

Congratulations

Regards, D.

underneath the "W" a "16" is clearly stamped...making this one from 1916. very interesting to know that this unit marking was made well into the war...i have read that the flat back 98/05s were given to artillery and rear guard units...possibly "BATT" could stand for "artillery batterie?"

 

thank you for your quick reply and helpful information, very much appreciated!

[trajan]

On 28/05/2018 at 02:03, fuzzbrite said:

underneath the "W" a "16" is clearly stamped...making this one from 1916. very interesting to know that this unit marking was made well into the war...i have read that the flat back 98/05s were given to artillery and rear guard units...possibly "BATT" could stand for "artillery batterie?"

 

thank you for your quick reply and helpful information, very much appreciated!

 

Certainly an interesting one - and I would not mind having it in my collection: W/16 marked Waffenfabrik 98/05 bayonets are not common, and that marking is an odd one. Let me know what the weight is, without scabbard, please, and I will be able to check my records on this one. I take it that there are no markings on the scabbard?

 

Julian

[militariaone]

Greetings Julian,

 

Can you assist me with this 98/05? I believe, it is a Sea Battalion, but that is a guess.

 

Thank you,

 

V/r Lance

[shippingsteel]

On 12/06/2018 at 02:30, militariaone said:

Can you assist me with this 98/05? I believe, it is a Sea Battalion, but that is a guess.

 

Hi Lance, I think you have an extremely rare marking there. The SB certainly indicates a Seebataillone as in Imperial Navy Marines, but I think the Sc mark in this case could stand for a Marine detachment that was part of the Schutztruppe. (The expeditionary force that was assigned to controlling the German possessions in Africa and other parts of the world.) I understand there were bataillone strength detachments of Marines that did serve with the Schutztruppe in Africa. Some further research may be required to see if this checks out.  

[trajan]

On 11/06/2018 at 19:30, militariaone said:

Greetings Julian,

 

Can you assist me with this 98/05? I believe, it is a Sea Battalion, but that is a guess.

 

6 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

 

Hi Lance, I think you have an extremely rare marking there. The SB certainly indicates a Seebataillone as in Imperial Navy Marines, but I think the Sc mark in this case could stand for a Marine detachment that was part of the Schutztruppe. (The expeditionary force that was assigned to controlling the German possessions in Africa and other parts of the world.) I understand there were bataillone strength detachments of Marines that did serve with the Schutztruppe in Africa. Some further research may be required to see if this checks out.  

 

Certainly an oddity and needs some thought after work!

 

SB is indeed Seebataillone, but they were never formally part of any Schutztruppen unit, for which the correct abbreviation would in any case be 'Sch', followed by DOA for Deutsch Ost Afrika, or K for Kamerun. One possibilty to play with is Seebataillone I, Sanitaets Compagnie, Waffe 87. It did cross my mind it might belong to the Seebataillon detatchment that was stationed at Skutari in 1913, but then it would read Sk not Sc...

 

Nice to have a paired scabbard and bayonet! Who was the maker and what is the year - the year might help sort it out better!

 

Julian

[RAL]

S.B.So.I.87.

 

Schutzpolizei Berlin Südost, Schutzbereich I, waffe n°87.

[trajan]

56 minutes ago, RAL said:

S.B.So.I.87.

 

Schutzpolizei Berlin Südost, Schutzbereich I, waffe n°87.

 

Of course!  The the style of marking used 1922-1932... So, should it be marked '1920' on the other side? I am unfamiliar with the police markings (it shows!), but I was certainly begining to doubt my original suggestion as why would a member of a 'Sanitaets' company be using a 98/05?

 

Trajan

[zuluwar2006]

2 hours ago, RAL said:

S.B.So.I.87.

 

Schutzpolizei Berlin Südost, Schutzbereich I, waffe n°87.

correct!!!!!!!

BRAVO!!!!!

[shippingsteel]

OK so a post-war marking (after 1922), it certainly helps if you can work out what each letter is. 

S.B.So. indicates Schutzpolizei Berlin Suedost (Southeast) according to this handy webpage below

http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/police_unit_marks.html

[trajan]

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

OK so a post-war marking (after 1922), it certainly helps if you can work out what each letter is. 

S.B.So. indicates Schutzpolizei Berlin Suedost (Southeast) according to this handy webpage below

http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/police_unit_marks.html

 

I checked out that web-page against the official instructions, which were issued in two stages, 05.04.1922 and 12.04.1922, and it has missed out the crucial detail that RAL (post 371) picked up on and ZW (373) confirmed, the 'Schutzbereich' part, not included in the marking system and missed out from the web-page. To break it down it is indeed Schutzpolizei Berlin Südost [Schutzbereich] I, waffe nr.87. A 'Schutzbereich' is a department within the main establishment - I think!