German Unit Bayonet Markings

[trajan]

I thought I'd get this thread going as there are some lovely unit-marked German bayonets out there, and by publicising them more widely the known data base of these can be expanded, building on this and so helping others identify any marked bayonets they might have. Of course, there is bound to be some disagreement over the exact interpretations of some of these markings ( ! ), but that's par for the course! And naturally, the more additions - and clarifications / corrections that are made - the better and more useful this thread will be!

I'll start the ball rolling (hopefully!) with this one, on a W/06 S.1898, made by WK&C of Solingen, and so one of a limited series they made between 1902-1907 for Prussia (with some also for Bavaria). This one was put up on GBF, and shown here with the permission of the owner 'Panzerfaust 44'.

The bayonet is marked 9.R.4.10, and the scabbard 9.R.4.132. As far as I can determine, this would be the Colbergsches-Grenadier-Regiment Graf Gneisenau (2. Pommersches) Nr.9, Kompanie 4, Waffe 10 and Waffe 132. As far as I can establish, they began 1914 with the 3.Division but in November 1914, after Ypres, they were transferred to the east and attached to the 6. Garde-Infanterie-Brigade as part of the 3. Garde-Infanterie-Division, before moving back west with the 3.G.I.Divison in November 1916, serving on the Westfront until November 1918.

EDIT: I have been able to access a better computer and have re-sized the photographs

[Michael Haselgrove]

Trajan,

An excellent idea and you start with a very nice bayonet!

To keep the ball rolling, attached are some photos of the S98aA in my collection. This bayonet is one of the trials bayonets issued on the 9th February 1899 to, among others, the Garde-Schutzen-Battaillon. The date stamp is not clear but I am satisfied it is for 1898. By coincidence a similar bayonet dated 1899 and marked G.S.3.176 is shown in Vol.11 of Carter at page 79. The marking, I think, indicates Garde-Schutzen-Battaillon, Konpagnie 3, Waffe 174.

By way of brief history, in the First World War the GSB was one of the first units advancing on the western front. It participated in the attack on Belgium and northern France. After fighting near the Aire on 13 September 1914 only 213 men, out of an original 1,250, remained fit for action. The 12th Landwehr Division was formed in April 1915 and the replenished GSB was attached to it. After operating in Champagne it was fighting at the Hartmannswillerkopf in Alsace between April 1915 and November 1915. In October 1916 the GSB was redeployed to the Serbian front in Macedonia where it stayed until end of February 1918. In March 1918 it returned to Alsace, not participating in any more in major fights until the ceasefire.

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

Very nice!

I know of two other examples only with GS markings, one an W/98, with 'G.S.1.227', and the other that W/99, with 'G.S.3.176', of Carter's. There are some 98aA's with 'G.G.', 'G.J.', 'G.R.' 'G.F', and 'G.G.R' markings, plus some with other unit markings - including a Kiel Navy Yard one!

Best,

Julian

[trajan]

And while on the subject of Kiel markings, here is a scabbard that came with a 98/05 a.A.m.S, with some nice crossed out Kiel marks, as this scabbard was ultimately pressed into service elsewhere. Again, thanks to Panzerfaust44 of GBF for allowing me to show this one. So, the markings 'W.K.1328' are for Werft Kiel', the Kiel Dockyard. (BTW, the Kiel 98 bayonet I mentioned above is a W/03 98/transitional marked 'W.K.4585').

An oddity here... There are several 98/05 bayonets marked W.W. for Werft Wilhelmshaven going up to 7076, and a 98/05 a.A.m.S marked 'W.K.2500' is on record, but none (scabbards or bayonets) have apparently yet been found marked 'W.D' for Werft Danzig, the third of the Prussian dockyards.

Edit: re-sized the photograph

[trajan]

And as a last one for your pleasure before bed-time story time for the monsters... A nice clear bayonet marking with a nice clear (unmatched) scabbard marking, posted here courtesy of Orcutt of GBF.

The bayonet is a J.A.Henckels Zwillingswerk 98/05 n.A, with no crowned initial or year mark, only a fraktur marking, so all that can be said is post-1915 (Carter vol.1, p.77, though, has them as making 98/05’s in 1917 only). The marking is ‘3.E.M.G.K.585’ – note that reversed ‘K’! This appears to be the 3.Ersatz-Maschinengewehr-Kompanie, Waffe 585. Others from the same unit are a W/16 Simpson, Suhl 98/05 n.A, marked '3.E.M.G.K.71' (in Carter vol.2, p.237), and I have heard tell of at least two others from the same unit, but I haven't seen those. Not found out much about the unit (yet!) apart from that in 1914 they were part of the Königsberg garrison and so in the 8.Armee.

The scabbard is ‘1.E.M.G.K.7.A.K.36’, and so 1.Ersatz-Maschinengewehr-Kompanie, 7.Armee-korps, Waffe 35. All I have on them as yet is that on or by 14 07 1915 a platoon from the company was attached to the newly formed 369 Infanterie-Regiment.

EDIT: re-sized the photographs

[jscott]

Excellent idea for a thread - thanks for starting Trajan. I will post some photos of the 4-5 regimentally marked German bayonets in my collection in a few days (I'm off to Belgium tomorrow so it will have to be after that).

[trajan]

... The marking is ‘3.E.M.G.K.585’ – note that reversed ‘K’! This appears to be the 3.Ersatz-Maschinengewehr-Kompanie, Waffe 585. Others from the same unit are a W/16 Simpson, Suhl 98/05 n.A, marked '3.E.M.G.K.71' (in Carter vol.2, p.237), and I have heard tell of at least two others from the same unit, but I haven't seen those. Not found out much about the unit (yet!) apart from that in 1914 they were part of the Königsberg garrison and so in the 8.Armee....

Talk of the devil or the proverbial no.7 bus... I overlooked this earlier, but now, courtesy of Costnsg of GBF, here is a L/16, Fitchel and Sachs, S98/05 n.A., the ricasso having the cross-keys mark of F.Herder (of Solingen) above the stamped Fichtel and Sachs (of Schweinfurt), which according to Carter (vol 1, p.72) indicates that Herder made the blade blanks and Fitchel and Sachs did the finishing up to 1917, when Herder marks cease on their products, indicating that Fitchel and Sachs had their own production run for blade blanks in 1918.

And the unit mark? Well, '3.E.M.G.791'... So, something odd here. A Bavarian-made bayonet issued to a Prussian unit... Even odder to have 3 bayonets for this same unit, and each of the bayonets a different maker:

J.A.Henckels Zwillingswerk 98/05 n.A - ‘3.E.M.G.K.585’

W/16, Simpson, 98/05 n.A - '3.E.M.G.K.71'

L/16, Fitchel and Sachs, S98/05 n.A. - '3.E.M.G.791'

EDIT: re-sized photographs

[N White]

Not as exciting as some others perhaps, but here is a 04 Alex Coppel, which I have been told in the past is Infanterie-Regiment Alt-Württemberg (3. Württembergisches) Nr.121, Kompagnie 1, Waffen Nr. 147.

[trajan]

Not as exciting as some others perhaps, but here is a 04 Alex Coppel, which I have been told in the past is Infanterie-Regiment Alt-Württemberg (3. Württembergisches) Nr.121, Kompagnie 1, Waffen Nr. 147.

They are all exciting marks, methinks! And even more fun to trace them back to where they came from and where they may have been used in combat! I just wish I had some of those that I see around and on here...

Yes, you have identified this one (I assume a S.98 n.A) spot on - and more information and the regiment and its activities in WWI (they moved around a lot!) is available on http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_121 Ludwigsburg was their home base, and in 1914 they were with the XIII. (Königlich Württembergisches) Armee-Korps

Carter (vol 2, p. 111) lists two others from the same regiment:

W/03, Erfurt, 98 n.A.m.S., '121.R.2.175'

W/05, C.G.Haenel, 98 n.A., '121.R.6.17'

As far as Carter knew (vol 2, p. 112), the only other Württembergisches Infanterie-Regiment that got Coppel bayonets, two with W/04, was the 127.Infanterie-Regiment (Württembergisches 9).

I'll see if I can find out any marked bayonets for the 121.Inf.Reg. and any other Coppels going to Wurttemburg when I get home...

[trajan]

This is another from Costng of GBF, a W/01 Erfurt, 98 a.A., marked ’51.R.3.65.’, and so 51 Infanterie-Regiment (4 Niederschlesisches) 3.Company, weapon 65. BUT, note that there is a trace of what might be an earlier weapon number at a smaller size behind the '65', and partly obliterated by the dot that follows the '5'? All that's left of an earlier marking that has been almost entirely removed/scrubbed-off?

The background history to the regiment is on http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_51, with further links, and there is also something on http://www.militaerpass.net/11id.htm They seem to have remained at their base in Breslau for 1914, but were with the 11.Division in the West by November 1918.

EDIT: re=sized photographs

[trajan]

And my last one for now – honest, as I have to set an exam!!!

This one comes courtesy of b73 of GBF. It’s a W/06, Schiller, 98 n.A., which unfortunately found its way to Turkey, where it was ‘Turked’ , before reaching its eventual owner in a later and modified Czech VZ.24 scabbard… The marking is a tad indistinct, but is 10. R . 5. 127. So this should be for the 10. Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich Wilhelm II (1. Schlesisches) 5(?) Kompanie, waffe 127. The basic history of the regiment is here – http://genwiki.genealogy.net/Gren.R_10 Based at Schweidnitz, the regiment was part of the 21.Infanterie Brigade, of the 11.Infanterie Division, of the VI Armee Korps, of the 2.Armee, and they were on the westfront from 1914-1918.

Carter (vol 2, p. 90) has no other marked examples for this unit – but I will check with my files at home.

[trajan]

... An oddity here... There are several 98/05 bayonets marked W.W. for Werft Wilhelmshaven going up to 7076, and a 98/05 a.A.m.S marked 'W.K.2500' is on record, but none (scabbards or bayonets) have apparently yet been found marked 'W.D' for Werft Danzig, the third of the Prussian dockyards.

An update needed, to put on record first of all an undated Simson 98 a.A, bayonet and scabbard marked 'W.K.1242'; and a S.98 scabbard marked 'W.K.7770'.

Also, an M/06 undated Simson 98 n.A., marked 'W.W.7790' Puzzled by that crowned 'M' spine mark? It is the Marinen proof mark, which was used by the Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken Aktien-Gesellschaft, who developed and marked the 'Luger' pistols with this crowned M for naval service... Beats me what all this means... Why a 'Luger'-type spine mark on a bayonet? Approval into service by a private company?

And best all of no less than two Danzig marked bayonets!

Undated, Simpson, 98 a.A., bayonet marked 'II.W.D.1345' (in the 'W.K.7770 scabbard' recorded above)

Undated, Simpson, 98 a.A., bayonet and scabbard marked 'II.W.D.1643'

[militariaone]

Greetings Gents,

My only matching set.

Regards,

Lance

[trajan]

That is gorgeous! A 98/05 a.A.m.S? I think this is for the Eisenbahn-Baukompagnie 19, waffe 121.

Carter (vol 1., 20) has two W/07 Erfurt-made 98/05 a.A.m.S., one is 'E.2.261', the other is 'E.16.136', but what is even nicer, though, is that there is a W/06 dated bayonet (no type or maker given) marked 'E.19.43' (but misinterpreted as a Battalion 19) on this webpage - http://luger.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-12773.html

And we can add a couple of 'Luger' pistols to these, marked 'E.20.1' and 'E.18.1', see - http://luger.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-26012.html

TTFN!

Julian

[trajan]

This bayonet is one of the trials bayonets issued on the 9th February 1899 to, among others, the Garde-Schutzen-Battaillon. The date stamp is not clear but I am satisfied it is for 1898. By coincidence a similar bayonet dated 1899 and marked G.S.3.176 is shown in Vol.11 of Carter at page 79. The marking, I think, indicates Garde-Schutzen-Battaillon, Konpagnie 3, Waffe 174.

By way of brief history, in the First World War the GSB was one of the first units advancing on the western front. It participated in the attack on Belgium and northern France. After fighting near the Aire on 13 September 1914 only 213 men, out of an original 1,250, remained fit for action. The 12th Landwehr Division was formed in April 1915 and the replenished GSB was attached to it. After operating in Champagne it was fighting at the Hartmannswillerkopf in Alsace between April 1915 and November 1915. In October 1916 the GSB was redeployed to the Serbian front in Macedonia where it stayed until end of February 1918. In March 1918 it returned to Alsace, not participating in any more in major fights until the ceasefire.

Michael H. has kindly allowed me to edit his photographs from the earlier to a more a more manageable and viewable size - militariaone, can I do the same for yours? Mind you, re-sizing this one makes me even more envious than I was before...

[militariaone]

Greetings Trajan,

Please, feel free to edit away!

Regards,

Lance

[trajan]

This is another nice one, a W/73 dated Gerbruder Weyersburg M.1871, marked '40.L.R.8.219', for - I would have thought - the 40 Landwehr (Infanterie) Regiment, Compagnie 8, waffe 219. The 'R' is not an italicised (or 'script') letter, and so I don't think it's a Reserve unit, and recruiting depots don't usually have companies...

According to http://genwiki.genealogy.net/LIR_40, the Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.40 was raised/formalised in 1914 as part of the 55.Gemischte Landwehr Brigade, the 12.Landwehr Division, the XIV.Armee Korps See also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/12._Landwehr-Division_(Deutsches_Kaiserreich), where it is assigned in 1915 to the 82.Landwehr-Infanterie-Brigade; and http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181059 where it is assigned to the 55. gemischte Landwehr-Brigade; and this French web site which mentions a postcard 'd'un Gefreiter du LIR 40 de la 12. Landwehr-Div'. - http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t65915-landwehr-infanterie-regiment-nr-40

My only hesitation on the identification of this marking being that this is a W/73 bayonet that is apparently first unit-marked in 1914 when the Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.40 was mobilised? Don't have time now though to search any further... Clarification/correction welcomed!

[trajan]

Please, feel free to edit away!... Regards,...Lance

Your wish is my command (in this case!)... And here it is, re-sized as requested with original comment...

I think this is for the Eisenbahn-Baukompagnie 19, waffe 121.

Carter (vol 1., 20) has two W/07 Erfurt-made 98/05 a.A.m.S., one is 'E.2.261', the other is 'E.16.136', but what is even nicer, though, is that there is a W/06 dated bayonet (no type or maker given) marked 'E.19.43' (but misinterpreted as a Battalion 19) on this webpage - http://luger.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-12773.html

And we can add a couple of 'Luger' pistols to these, marked 'E.20.1' and 'E.18.1', see - http://luger.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-26012.html

PS: Nah, not at all jealous...

[trajan]

This is another nice one, a W/73 dated Gerbruder Weyersburg M.1871, marked '40.L.R.8.219', for the 40 Landwehr (Infanterie) Regiment, Compagnie 8, waffe 219....My only hesitation on the identification of this marking being that this is a W/73 bayonet that is apparently first unit-marked in 1914 when the Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.40 was mobilised? Don't have time now though to search any further... Clarification/correction welcomed!

Well, clarification and confirmation (of a kind) for that antepenultimate sentence above arrived today in the form a loan copy of Carter's Vol 4 (or IV if you prefer!) which has just come into my hands, and there on p.177, we read -

"The following markings were stamped according to the 1890 regulations when L.R. was introduced to identify a Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment'".

Carter then lists seven examples of the IS 71, none of them by Weyserburg, the maker of the one we are dealing with, with dates W/73, W/74, W/75, W/76 and W/79. One of these seven, a W/73, is a P.D.Luneschloss marked '40.L.R.9.105', which Carter indicates is the 40 Landwehr (Infanterie) Regiment, Compagnie 9, waffe 105.

So, I may have missed something or simply misread the text on http://genwiki.genealogy.net/LIR_40 which seemed to me to indicate that the Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.40 was raised/formalised in 1914... Time then for a bier, as that always seems to help when reading deutsch...!!!

Julian

[Michael Haselgrove]

Trajan,

Here's another one for you. An S 71/84. We discussed these recently in another thread so I won't say anything about it save that it is the earlier type with short fullers. The manufacturer is Weyersberg Kirschbaum & Co. Solingen.

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

You lucky so-and-so...

Very nice bayonet and scabbard, and one of the most beautiful examples of this first version of the S 71/84 - with the short fullers - that I have seen outside of a book! (Quiet slaver and drool here )

And lovely clear markings! WK & C seem to have been the most prolific makers of these, some with ERFURT marks also.

'16.R.6.148', I think should be the Infanterie-Regiment Freiherr von Sparr (3. Westfälisches) Nr.16 - http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_16 (company 6, weapon 148), and what's nice for you is that Carter (vol 2, p. 11) lists two companion pieces, '16.R.6. 143' and '16.R.10.58', both W/87 and WK&C!

That scabbard is simply perfect, and that marking, '21 R.9.165', all goes to show how regimental or whichever armourers did not always follow regulation to the crossing of the t and dotting of the i (it's missing a dot /period/full stop after that 21!). This should be (I think) the Infanterie-Regiment von Borcke (4. Pommersches) Nr.21 - http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_21 (company 9, weapon 165). Carter has no examples of this regimental marking...

I'd love to say and write more on both if I could go and check my files and those German pages - BUT it's the boy's bedtime...

Trajan

PS: How is your German???!!! Glaubst du mir, deutsch ist sehr einfach, aber Turkçe çok zör!

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hi Trajan,

Thanks for your kind comments and all the information. I'm afraid that's all the unit marked German bayonets I have but I will post pictures of one ortwo of my others on another thread in due course. Even if I don't contribute I, for one, am enjoying reading all your posts so do keep it up!

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

Thank you Michael!

It is absorbing and anorakish in its own way, but so is analysing and assessing and interpreting the grave markers and building inscriptions of Roman army units to find out where they went to and what campaigns they were involved in and what that tells us about concepts of strategy, etc., in the Roman Empire! In an ideal world I would get a student to do all this bayonet marking work for me as the cumulative data from the artefacts themselves regarding weapons production and supply for the Deutsches Heer, would make a nice point of comparison with what survives of any official German records.

But, more to the point - its is fun to do this! As in - why climb mountains!

Julian

[trajan]

On another thread - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208823&page=2

I have posted something about the size of letters and numbers used in these unit markings. So, for the sake of completeness, I thought I’d re-post that information here, beginning with the relevant regulations concerning stamp sizes as these are set out in the 1877 Regulations, the "Vorschrift über das Bezeichnen und Numeriren der in den händen der Kommandobehörden, Truppen und Administrationen befindlichen, resp. für den Fall einer Mobilmachung bereit zu haltenden Waffen”

Under the title Art der Bezeichnung und des Numerirens (p. 45-6), and with reference to marking unit weaponry, this specifies the use of:-

(p.45) Buchstabenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm (0,16”) / Stempel mit römischen Zahlen in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm (0,16”) / (p.46) Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm (0,12”)

Which I would translate as-:

“Letter stamps are to be in the character height of 4.2 mm (0.16”) high. / Stamps using Roman numbers are to be the character height of 4.2 mm (0.16”). / (Other) numbers in the character height of 3.1 mm (0.12”)”

The 1909 regulations in the DVE 185 state on p. 6 that:-

“Buchstabenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 und 2,5 mm. / Stempel mit römischen Zahlen in der Schrifthöhe von 4,2 mm, Zahlenstempel in der Schrifthöhe von 3,1 mm”

Which I would translate as-:

“Letter stamps are to be in the character height of 4.2 and 2.5 mm high. / Stamps using Roman numbers are to be the character height of 4.2 mm, (other) numbers in the character height of 3.1 mm”

Both texts then go on the explain how the markings are to be done and in what sequence, etc., and which I don’t have time to translate today, the only difference between the two sets of regulations (excepting of course the way the marks are arranged!) being that the 1909 regulations regarding marking specify the use of letter stamps that are 2.5 mm high in some cases.

TTFN,

Trajan

[trajan]

I guess it is time to bring into this thread a couple of markings I have posted elsewhere on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207144&hl=weimar#entry2043053 if only to give you all an update!

This is my W/1916 84/98 n.A., which came in a scabbard marked 'UV. 3. 72'. The commonly accepted meaning of this abbreviation in English reference works would indicate that this is for Unteroffizier-Vorschule Kompagnie 3 Waffe 72... But, the 1877 regulations p. 50 has:-

U. Ulan, Unteroffizierschule

And the 1909 has p. 14:-

U. Ulan, Unteroffizierschule, Unteroffiziervorschule, Kavallerie-Unteroffizierschule

And our GWF friend Fritz posted a reply to the original thread which would again indicate that an Unterofficierschule should be a simple ‘U’, not a ‘UV’.

So, this remains a bit of a problem... BUT, as Fritz’s friends observed, there is no way of establishing what markings might have been newly instituted or revised to deal with new and existing formations and the like after 1909.

The ‘FLZ 1036’ mark is also not entirely resolved – and of course is in neither the 1877 or 1909 regulations. The suggestions have included ‘FLieger Zeugdepot’; 'FernLenkzug' (naval units on the North Sea coast using radio-controlled weapons), Feld Lazaret Zug, and Flak Zug. Given that the known numbers of these bayonets go from FLZ 690 and FLZ 1278 I am inclined to go with Flak Zug. SS - I think you have a copy of the German Army Organisation book? Want to check?