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David Alexander MGC.146968


mysie

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Can anyone please help me with where i can best look for information on the above soldier, we have been told that his number means he did not join the MGC till 1918 which fits in with his KOSB Service 1914-1918.We have manged to find bits about his time in the KOSB, but can find nothing about his time in the MGC until we think he came out in 1921, but his records appear to been destroyed in the fire.

Thank You

Mary.

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Hi,

His Rolls don't tell you a lot

1914/15 Star :-

post-1302-0-07644000-1395135010_thumb.jp

War & Victory :-

post-1302-0-29799600-1395135087_thumb.jp

His MGC Service number would indicate that he transferred to them in about April 1918

Steve

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As far as we know he joined up in 1914 so his 7 years would have taken him to 1921. We have learned that when ww1 was over loads of men were then moved into the MGC. His Grandson is convinced his Grandad served in India at some stage,as he was not born till 1895 and could not be sent abroad till he was 19 we thought it was more likely to be after ww1 ended. But would he have been entitled to a medal for being in India.? Thanks for your reply Steve.

Mary.

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Hi

The 2nd Battalion King's Own Scottish Borderers went to France on 15th August 1914 but David did not join them in France until 11th January 1915 so he may well of been of age by that date.

Steve

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we think he came out in 1921, but his records appear to been destroyed in the fire.

As far as we know he joined up in 1914 so his 7 years would have taken him to 1921.

Service records from 1921 onwards are not in the public domain yet so if he served 1914-1921+ (or if he re-joined after 1921) then his service records may still be held by the MoD, have you made a subject access request to see if they have them?

John

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Hi

We knew that he did not go until 11th Jan 1915 and this is why he did not qualify for the Mons Star , but would he not have needed to do training somewhere first,or could his training have involved being in India.We know the 2nd Battalion KOSB were in Dublin pre ww1 and we thought it was more likely he would have been there rather in India but without records it is just guess work. We know he was wounded while in the KOSB once in 1916 and again in 1917. But we cant find anything about his time in the MGC.

Mary.

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Hi Mary,

as I said his records may still exist just not with The National Archives so unless you know for certain that he left the Army before 1921 and that he did not rejoin later then it is worth making a subject access request to see if the MoD hold them. Have you done that yet?

John

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Hi John,

My husband started this off about two years ago but none of us have much of a clue about research ,we have been on other sites and have found out a bit about the KOSB service part. I asked Davids Grandson if he would write to the Army pension In St Kentigerns house in Glasgow to see if they had anything on him , but the cheque was returned as they found nothing about him.This is the first we have heard of a subject access and we will give it a try. Would this mean if they had his records they would be kept from the public until 2021.?

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A subject access request would be made to Historical Disclosures at Kentigern House, Glasgow, you would normally pay a £30 fee for this.

The forms are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/210233/request_service_details_NOK_pt1_v6.pdf

and here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/142479/request_for_service_details_army_application_part2_1_.pdf

You can normally expect a reply in about 3 months to say they are prioritising urgent welfare requests and your request may take up to 12 months to complete (average is around 9 months).

If all this sounds familiar then that is probably what David's Grandson has done, if you're not sure you could always try again using the forms above, if unsuccesful they would not refund the £30.

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Would this mean if they had his records they would be kept from the public until 2021.?

Yes, the official rule is that they are restricted access for 100 years however rather than having a 'rolling' release every year they are released in blocks of 25 years. The 100 year rule was 'relaxed' to allow all records from 75 to 100 years available to the public. The next set covering WW2 will be in the public domain 2021

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Hi John

Thanks for your help ,i phoned David tonight and that was where they sent the £30.00 cheque which they did return, but my husband thought it was sent to the Army Pension dept in Kentigern House i wonder if the Historical Enclosures is not the same dept. I will see if i can contact them in the morning we had thought with David being in for 7 years and wounded twice he might have had a small pension but it appears not.

Mary.

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  • Admin

As far as we know he joined up in 1914 so his 7 years would have taken him to 1921. We have learned that when ww1 was over loads of men were then moved into the MGC. His Grandson is convinced his Grandad served in India at some stage,as he was not born till 1895 and could not be sent abroad till he was 19 we thought it was more likely to be after ww1 ended. But would he have been entitled to a medal for being in India.? Thanks for your reply Steve.

Mary.

There are a couple of assumptions that may need clarification. If he joined up in 1914 as a Kitchener volunteer, as seems likely because his number dates from August/September 1914, his conditions of service would have been for the duration of the war not for 7 years. He would only have served 7 years with the colours as a Regular soldier. As he went overseas January 1915 it's a fair assumption he joined September 1914, 3 months training and shipped to France as shown on the mic, joining the 2nd Bn. as a replacement. However, you will see from post 7 on this thread the usual requirement was six months training from August 1914.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=200777&hl=%2Bkitchener+%2Bvolunteer+%2Bregular#entry1969997

While some men were transferred to the MGC at the end of the the war the Corps was disbanded in 1922. Had he served in the MGC beyond 1920 he would have had a six digit number in the series beginning 7807001 so almost certainly no records at the Veterans Agency.

The £30 administration fee is non-refundable.

See https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records under Search Fee.

If, in the unlikely event he went to India [we know he went to France in 1915], he would not have had another medal as it was not a theatre of war. Some soldiers who served on the North West Frontier were awarded the Indian General Service Medal but this is invariably shown on the mic. As he joined up in the first rush of volunteers he would have given his age as 19 as that was the qualifying age for a Kitchener 'New Army' volunteer (18 for a Regular).

What we don't know is whether he went back to France with the MGC although it seems likely, given his date of joining the Corps he may have been posted there following his wound in 1917. We also know his campaign medals were returned as they were undeliverable. He was still serving when the 14-15 Star was issued.

Ken

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Hi Ken

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply in sutch depth, last night i sat and went through the small amount of information we had on David. I came across a print out from national archives saying 1914-1920, so it looks like what we had been told was that David would have served his 7 years 1914-1921 is in fact wrong and i thank you for pointing that out.If i understand what you are saying about David that he would have joined up in Sept 1914 this would fit with his being born in Oct 1895.So there is no way he was in India pre ww1.We were told his MGC number showed he joined the MGC IN 1918 so as you say he spent 2 years with them until 1920. So if he came out in 1920 there is very little chance of his records being held anywhere and more likely that they were destroyed in the fire.We know he did get his medals at some point in time. But despite his Grandson being convinced he did serve in India it looks like without records we cant proove to him that this was not the case. We know he got married in Glasgow in 1921 could it be possible that he might have rejoined after 1920 and gone to India then ,i would have thought that after what he had gone through that would have been the last thing he would have done .Thanks to you all for your repies.

Mary.

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Hi Mary,



My KOSB database indicates that David would have enlisted o/a 1 Sep 1914. It is difficult to give exact dates for this regiment during the early stages of the war because there are quite a few examples that don't fit the overall pattern.



I don't have anything on his 1916 wounding but I do have him in a casualty list published in The Scotsman, 12 Dec 1917. He is one of almost 30 wounded KOSB men and is listed as Alexander, 13856, D. (Falkirk). The same casualty list contains 13 KOSB men killed, all 2nd Bn and killed on 7th and (mostly) 8th Nov 1917. I have found that the wounded and killed lists usually correspond to the same action. The events covering 2nd KOSB at Third Ypres during Sep-Nov 1917 are described in The K.O.S.B. in the Great War by Capt. Stair Gillon, pages 97-105 - it is grim reading!



It appears that he was transferred to the MGC on his recovery from this wounding.



Stuart


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Hi Stuart

Thank you very much for your reply.We have a cutting from the Scotsman 29th Sept 1916 saying David Alexander Falkirk wounded.When my husband first started this research two years a go we were told it was likely that Davids records had been destroyed. We knew his mate Robert Baird had been killed in action but not when or where so the first thing my husband did was bought a copy of the KOSB IN THE GREAT WAR,and also the 5th Division in ww1. I have not read the book by Capt Stair Gillion but my husband say's you are right it does make grim reading . My husband has thoughts that David was injured/ wounded in the same attack that Robert was killed at Falfemont farm. We have managed to get a photo of Roberts grave at Delvile Wood to show Davids Grandson where his grandads mate is buried.Thanks to the book we have managed to get a picture of where David was and where he fought ,but have to admit a lot of it is assumed as we dont know how bad his two wounds were and how long he was out of action for.We dont know if he made the trip to Italy for the almost 4 months the 2nd KOSB were sent there or whether he was recovering from his wounds .But thanks to everyone who have replied we have now covered a lot of his time in the KOSB it is now the time he was in the MGC that we are unable to find out about,although the post from Ken above suggests David might have been posted back to France with the MGC.

Thanks again to you all.

Mary.

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