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Identification of unit or regiment required from photo


morleygr

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Can anyone please help me with the identification of this (sitting) soldier's regiment or unit?

I can see he appears to be a sergeant and I know he was in Salonika. His name is William Philipps.

Above the sergeants stripes appears to be some form of badge???

I have found a Medal Index Card for a William Philipps (unique spelling) who is a Staff sergeant in the R.E. No.159246 but I don't know whether it is him as there is no Service Record that I can find.

Also I could not find this Medal Index Card in Ancestry, it is not found no matter which search pattern is used. I did find it however at the Nat. Archives with no problem at all. So I wonder whether Ancestry's filming of these records is accurate and complete??

It may be useful also to know who the soldier standing is from as it may be give clue? Who the civilians are I have no idea!!

So working from the photo can anyone unravel this for me?

Any help at all appreciated.

Graham Morley

post-107577-0-88064800-1394902467_thumb.

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Would say it was a metal bomb - so possibly a Sgt, Royal Engineers, although it is known that both 'Bombers' also wore it in cloth.

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If the badge above the stripes is a crown (impossible to see on the copy) then he was a Staff Sergeant. Trade and proficiency badges tended to be worn on the lower sleeve. You need a magnifying glass on the original and maybe a larger scan of just that section.

The badges on tropical kit were often detachable as uniforms required frequent washing. Pith helmet extensively worn in hot climates, including Salonika. Triangular flap on the pocket and soft collar of the tunic are also typical as are the shorts and puttees with hose. There were variations on this pattern of uniform.

Don't know anything about Greek uniforms but the seated soldier is wearing British hot climate dress typical of WW1. As an engineer he may have been working in the port and the civilians are contractors, then again there could be a far more romantic interpretation they obviously meant something at the time!!

As for the mic there are a number of threads discussing this issue including this recent one

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207849&hl=

Ken

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Hello there, neither can I find anything military related yet, is he a family member.

I have found a birth registered in the Chelsea area in the December 1/4 1889 which would if this is him make him 28 at the time of the photo, but still looking for him.

Cheers Roger.

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that looks to me like an RE Staff Sgt (Sgt stripes with grenade and crown above). for example a modern version: http://www.crusader80.co.uk/images/stripes002.jpg

while he records do not show on Ancestry for some reason you could access his medal card through Kew to check his number, although unlikely to be very informative. And it looks right for Salonika .. as others have said.

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Graham

There have been a few threads on MIC's missing on Ancestry, this one http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207849&hl= a week or so ago.

Have you ordered his MIC from the National Archives? Does it have a "Date of Entry therein" and "Theatre first served"? is it for a 1914 or 1914/15 Star trio or War and Victory only?

As to his rank, it's hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like just the bomb above his stripes making him an RE Sgt, if the Crown is above it, he's an RE SSgt (I was one).

What I find strange is that he only has a MIC for a SSgt, this would suggest previous service, possibly a Regular? Have you looked for him in the 1911 Census? It took a fair amount of time to become an RE SSgt due to the trade qualifications required.

Sam

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The mic would show the highest rank attained, not necessarily the one in the photo

Ken

You all have better eyesight than me! :unsure:

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Thanks to everyone who is trying to help me with this. I have all his family tree and birth details and also his MIC. It only states Staff Sergeant with the standard British Medal and Victory Medal. Unfortunately no theatre!!!!!

I have also the Medal Roll itself and again no further information other than it looks like the Medals were returned ? "Ret-d (992 K.R. 1923) 8426/ADT" Please confirm my thoughts on this someone.

The Medal Roll is WO 372/15/219830.

There was also a family rumour that he received the British Empire Gallantry Medal but I can find no listing for him.

Any further thoughts and help very welcome, I don't want to jump to conclusions that MIC I found is for the soldier in the Photo, however I would like it to be as it's the only document found so far!!

Thanks again, please keep any thoughts coming.

Graham Morley

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If the badge above the stripes is a crown (impossible to see on the copy) then he was a Staff Sergeant. Trade and proficiency badges tended to be worn on the lower sleeve. You need a magnifying glass on the original and maybe a larger scan of just that section.

The badges on tropical kit were often detachable as uniforms required frequent washing. Pith helmet extensively worn in hot climates, including Salonika. Triangular flap on the pocket and soft collar of the tunic are also typical as are the shorts and puttees with hose. There were variations on this pattern of uniform.

Don't know anything about Greek uniforms but the seated soldier is wearing British hot climate dress typical of WW1. As an engineer he may have been working in the port and the civilians are contractors, then again there could be a far more romantic interpretation they obviously meant something at the time!!

As for the mic there are a number of threads discussing this issue including this recent one

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207849&hl=

Ken

Thanks Ken,

I have followed your shortcut and left my thoughts on these missing MIC's - my concern is that this could be just a fragment - if these are missing what about the Service Records? - unfortunately, the micro films for the Burnt Series Service Records at NA are longer available for use by the public so I can't check - they just refer you to Ancestry.

Thanks and regards.

Graham

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Graham

There have been a few threads on MIC's missing on Ancestry, this one http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207849&hl= a week or so ago.

Have you ordered his MIC from the National Archives? Does it have a "Date of Entry therein" and "Theatre first served"? is it for a 1914 or 1914/15 Star trio or War and Victory only?

As to his rank, it's hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like just the bomb above his stripes making him an RE Sgt, if the Crown is above it, he's an RE SSgt (I was one).

What I find strange is that he only has a MIC for a SSgt, this would suggest previous service, possibly a Regular? Have you looked for him in the 1911 Census? It took a fair amount of time to become an RE SSgt due to the trade qualifications required.

Sam

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your imput - I did find him in the 1911 Census and he's still a civvy, a carpenter. I have his MIC it's War and Victory only, no theatre either!! See my later Post with all the info. I have.

Thanks and regards.

Graham Morley

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Hi Sam,

Thanks for your imput - I did find him in the 1911 Census and he's still a civvy, a carpenter. I have his MIC it's War and Victory only, no theatre either!! See my later Post with all the info. I have.

Thanks and regards.

Graham Morley

Hi Again Sa,

I forgot to say that William Philipps was a Master Carpenter before he joined the army, would this make a difference to getting quick promotion?

Thanks and regards.

Graham Morley

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Thanks to everyone who is trying to help me with this. I have all his family tree and birth details and also his MIC. It only states Staff Sergeant with the standard British Medal and Victory Medal. Unfortunately no theatre!!!!!

I have also the Medal Roll itself and again no further information other than it looks like the Medals were returned ? "Ret-d (992 K.R. 1923) 8426/ADT" Please confirm my thoughts on this someone.

The Medal Roll is WO 372/15/219830.

There was also a family rumour that he received the British Empire Gallantry Medal but I can find no listing for him.

Graham Morley

There was no need to enter a theatre for a pair as all soldiers who served overseas in a theatre of war qualified for the BWM and VM

The medals were returned, some say 8426/adt meant 'adjustment', I'm no longer sure that this is what this reference means and I've yet to see a definitive interpretation, though I have seen a note that specifically says the 'rank amended'.

The medals could simply have been returned as undeliverable. Full text of 992 K.R. is on this earlier thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92039 If the medals were not claimed within ten years they were returned to Woolwich to be 'broken up'.

The Empire Gallantry Medal was not instituted until 1922 there is what is claimed to be a full list on this website http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/egm.htm

his name does not appear, nor can I find a Gazette reference.

Ken

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There was no need to enter a theatre for a pair as all soldiers who served overseas in a theatre of war qualified for the BWM and VM

The medals were returned, some say 8426/adt meant 'adjustment', I'm no longer sure that this is what this reference means and I've yet to see a definitive interpretation, though I have seen a note that specifically says the 'rank amended'.

The medals could simply have been returned as undeliverable. Full text of 992 K.R. is on this earlier thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92039 If the medals were not claimed within ten years they were returned to Woolwich to be 'broken up'.

The Empire Gallantry Medal was not instituted until 1922 there is what is claimed to be a full list on this website http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/egm.htm

his name does not appear, nor can I find a Gazette reference.

Ken

Thanks Ken,

I've now established it was the British Empire Medal and it was gazetted in 1948. Thanks for confirming the return of the medals. I thought that's what it meant. I'm sure it was because he had moved.

Grateful for your help.

Regards.

Graham Morley

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