Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA) numbering, enlistment dates, new Heavy

[RussT]

Kevin

Many thanks - I have seen that thread before but couldn't find it, so I started to imagine that it had existed rather than it actually existing! I'll bookmark it for future reference.

Perhaps if I may, a further question to put my general query into context.

I'm looking at a man with RGA number 308150. His MIC shows the medal roll prefixed with TF and a picture I have shows him wearing the Imperial Service Brooch, so definitely TF. I can now see from the list you have directed me to that the 308xxx number series was allocated to the 1st and 2nd Lancashire Heavy Batteries RGA, West Lancs Division. He was from Liverpool, so that also fits.

In looking at MICs of other men with 308xxx RGA numbers, they show very few (if any) previous low digit RGA numbers and everyone in CWGC with a 308xxx RGA number died after Jan 1917.

So my question is: should I assume this man enlisted at a time after the commencement of these 308xxx 6-digit TF numbers were being allocated (early 1917?) or might he have indeed enlisted much earlier and would have had an earlier, say, 4-digit number?

Hope this query makes sense

Thanks for your advice.

Russ

[kevinrowlinson]

Russ,

I haven't done the Lancs. RGA TF in detail but what records I have seen would suggest they were renumbered by enlistment (embodiment) date. I would put him as a poss. Sept/Oct 1914 man. The nearest mens records that I have would suggest 1/2 Lancs. HB. I believe Gnr. Stanley Killiner was a wheeler.

Kevin

[RussT]

Kevin

Many thanks for that - that's him.

I have him 18yrs old, single, in the 1911 census as an Apprentice Engine Fitter with the L&NW Railway in Liverpool.

I would be interested to know where you acquired the info that he was a wheeler.

The picture of him in uniform is a studio marriage portrait next to his wife, married April 1915.

Just found a pension record for his dad, John Henry Killiner who was with the 8/Lancs RGA (Volunteers?) 1895-1908, later TF No 137 East Lancs RGA 1909-1914, discharged on embodiment on 05/08/1914 as medically unfit (he was about 51 yrs old by then). So it looks like Stanley followed his Dad's example by joining the local RGA TF.

Regards

Russ

[Turnbulli]

Kevin

I have now been through the list of 9 Soldiers from 177 HB with surviving war records that you left me on the 12th May. I did this at the National Archive although all the records were on Ancestry. However only 1 or 2 spent much time with 177 out in Mesopotamia for various reasons, so I wondered if its possible to lay your hands on a few more around these numbers?. I have a lead to follow up obtained from the III Indian Corps Heavy Artillery Brigade War Diary which mentions a Lieutenant A R Miller (26840) who was promoted from Seargent to take up a post with the 177th once they had arrived at HQ in Baqubah (entry dated 1/10/17) but I have not had a chance to see if his record survives yet..

Thank you again for any further help you could be

Ian

[kevinrowlinson]

Ian,

The majority of gunners served with more than one battery, especially in that theatre of war. I would suggest you keep an open mind to the possibility that your relative also served with more than one.

I haven't as yet seen any others close to those numbers that I gave you but here are a few to keep you going if they are of interest.

42068 Boyd, Robert

75758 Richards, Arthur Fenwick

75782 Fraser, Robert Gray

86577 Bardrick, Frederick

93102 Titford, Horace Lionel

97380 Jaundrell, William Henry

150424 Hindle, Frank Holt

150493 McKegg, William

203364 pipe, Keeble Wilgress ( was RFA 139209)

476/308212 Roberts, Samuel

Kevin

[Turnbulli]

Thank you once again for your help Kevin - I take your point about keeping an open mind. I will look at these soldiers in detail as soon as I can. I have also acquired some more photos of Thomas my Ancestor which we are presuming at the moment are from Mesopotamia so these may also give us a clue as to where he went. He was listed as "Base Dtls" on the Medal Roll, whereas some of the soldiers around his entry were still listed as 177th Battery, so perhaps he was demobilised earlier than some in his Battery. Thanks Ian

[Guest afcbsimon]

Apologies for resurrecting this topic but new to the forum and not sure on the protocol however this topic seemed relevant to my enquiry.

I have details from a Medal Card of a William W Reeks, 116956, Gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery.

I am trying to establish if this Gunner is William Walter Reeks born 1891, Hampshire and if so what Battalion did he work with?

Hope somebody may be able to help or point me in the right direction.

Thanks,

Simon

[kevinrowlinson]

Simon,

You should have a look at the Long, Long Trail which is linked at the top of this page, specifically those units that a RGA gunner would serve with, http://www.1914-1918.net/cra.htm .

In the absence of service records it is very difficult to find what unit an artillery man served with during the war. You should see if any photos or correspondence has been passed down the family.

Kevin

[BillBrierley]

Thanks to Kevin for doing so much work on this!

I am interested in the West Lancs Brigades, especially 2/1 and 2/2 (285 and 286) who were given the block of numbers 680001-685000. I've been working up a spreadsheet from the Medal Rolls, the Index cards and Absent Voter Lists for Preston and all goes well until 681290. Thereafter, the men start to be allocated second numbers in the range 286923-290659, but it's done in a random way. Does anybody know who 'owned' or allocated numbers in this block? It seems that at least some of the men may have served in 44 (Howitzer) Brigade, which was in Palestine in 1917 and early 1918, before going to France from July 1918.

Any info (and enlightenment!) gratefully received.

[kevinrowlinson]

Bill,

I stick to RGA gunners numbering so it may be better to start a thread with a heading to include "RFA numbering". I know a member has been specifically looking at this corps' numbering and although I could give the probable reason for these changes (similar happened in the RGA for a period of time) it would be better to have someone answer who has researched the numbering of the RFA.

Kevin

[JMB1943]

Kevin,

I would appreciate any info that you can provide regarding probable date of attestation/enlistment/reporting to depot of my g'father,

Arthur H. Palmer, Sgt, #115277, 228th Siege Battery, RGA.

I know that the 228th landed in France on Jan. 14, 1917, and his MIC is consistent with this (BWM & VM only).

Service record does not survive.

In the 1911 census, he was living in Lewisham, S.E. London.

Regards,

JMB

P.S. I cannot see any data tabulated in your original post of Feb. 26, 2014; is this normal ?

[kevinrowlinson]

HIs number would imply arriving at No. 1 Depot, Fort Burgoyne, on or around the 14th August 1916 and being approved a few days later. 228th Sge Bty was formed at the Forth from the 12th Aug. 1916 so one can see he was not necessarily an original member and may must have joined a bit latter, or even in France.

 

"P.S. I cannot see any data tabulated in your original post of Feb. 26, 2014; is this normal ?"

I think I put my reasons on the Edited bit. I was going to put the original PDF file back but really couldn't see any good reason. Certainly since April 2015 some members have either forgotten about it or wished to ignore it, or new members haven't bothered to search to see what was/is available.

 

Kevin

[clive_hughes]

Kevin,

Hoping you might be able to enlighten me with a tad more information re. enlistment dates of the following Gunners, please.  Both were named Arthur Sumner and one of them is my wife's grandfather (still working on which it might be!).  

 

112540, served in 215 Siege Battery

113039, served in 220 Siege Battery.

 

Thanks,

Clive

 

[kevinrowlinson]

54 minutes ago, clive_hughes said:

Kevin,

Hoping you might be able to enlighten me with a tad more information re. enlistment dates of the following Gunners, please.  Both were named Arthur Sumner and one of them is my wife's grandfather (still working on which it might be!).  

 

112540, served in 215 Siege Battery

113039, served in 220 Siege Battery.

 

Thanks,

Clive

 

 

112540 indicates arriving on or around 29th July 1916 at No. 2 Depot, Fort Brockhurst, and being approved a few days later.

113039 on/around 5th August 1916 at the same Depot.

To arrive within a week of each other complicates matters. Where did he come from? Just a chance that if he was a Derby Scheme man he may have been mobilised with others from at the same time from exactly the same area. Obviously each depot were receiving men from recruiting areas allotted to them.

 

Kevin 

[JMB1943]

Kevin,

Many thanks for the additional info regarding my g'father's enlistment in 228th SB, RGA.

Regards,

JMB

[clive_hughes]

Hi Kevin,

The Arthur Sumner we're after came from Manchester.  We knew he was in the RGA but his medals disappeared years ago; it's just odd that the only other Gnr Arthur Sumner RGA was enlisted about the same time!!  No service records extant to prove which one was which, so Absent Voters seems the likeliest route now (not easy, since he wasn't shown in the 1918 AVL for the Manchester district in which he lived up to 1911).  

 

Still, it's achieved a rough date of enlistment, and I'm duly grateful for your help.

Clive 

[kevinrowlinson]

2 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

Hi Kevin,

The Arthur Sumner we're after came from Manchester.  We knew he was in the RGA but his medals disappeared years ago; it's just odd that the only other Gnr Arthur Sumner RGA was enlisted about the same time!!  No service records extant to prove which one was which, so Absent Voters seems the likeliest route now (not easy, since he wasn't shown in the 1918 AVL for the Manchester district in which he lived up to 1911).  

 

Still, it's achieved a rough date of enlistment, and I'm duly grateful for your help.

Clive 

 

Until such time you can positively identify one from the other, I would say that there is a higher bias towards the 112540 man being from the Manchester area (Bolton, Burnley, Seaforth etc) and the 113039 has a more Welsh bias ( Bangor, Crewe area etc.). Given men would have been arriving from all that recruiting area really doesn't help. It would have been easier if one had gone to a different Depot. What a coincidence!

 

For anyone interested I have put a couple of slightly updated lists in post 1.

 

Kevin

[JMB1943]

Kevin,

Kudos to you for the amount of research contained in those lists in the original post.

Even more kudos for sharing this info with all !!!

Regards,

JMB

[Stacgil]

My great grandad Henry Eric Gilbert 159794 was in the RGA and I'm for more information but can seem to find any 

[kevinrowlinson]

You have his service records, a personal booklet of his experiences and been given the war diary reference to view at the NA. What more information would you like exactly?

 

Kevin

[Guest]

Hi, I'm going through some things from my Grandfather who was 58th Batt AIF and served around Glencorse Wood in Flanders.  In his things I've discovered a photo of Fred Godison (or Goodison) RGA.  Fred is in uniform and the photo is addressed to my grandfather.  We have no idea who Fred is or who is family is. 

 

Where red is the best place to start looking for RGA info.  Ideally I'd like to locate Fred's family and see if they have a copy of the photo or not. Mir they don't I'd like to provide them with one.  Any guideance would be appreciated. Cheers

[kevinrowlinson]

The best place to go first is the Long Long Trail which is linked at the top of this page. More specifically http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/, and for the artillery http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/ .

 

I can see only one Frederick Goodison who served during the war, #151237. HIs service records have survived and can be viewed on FindMyPast or Ancestry.

 

Kevin

[Guest]

Thanks Kevin. Greatly appreciated 

[SebStJohn]

Hi Kevin,

My Grandfather has a regimental number of 290996 - which going from your post on the first page suggests 126 Camberwell (Which matches his location prior to the war)

However his medal roll suggests he was a gunner in the 162.

 

I don't think his service record has survived - am I right in thinking that he was in the 162?

Family stories suggest he was gassed - again I can find no reference of him on any casualty lists - is that normal or is the gassing just a myth?

 

Many thanks.

[kevinrowlinson]

I haven't looked at the medal rolls, but you haven't said whether it says 162nd Heavy Battery or Siege Battery. One can say that he enlisted in the 126th Heavy Battery and may well have served in any number of other ones if he had time away from the battery through sickness or wounds. It may be likely he served with 162nd Siege Battery, but 162nd Heavy Battery was divided on arrival overseas with one section going to 71 HB and the other to 141 HB. If he did go out with 162 HB then determining the battery he served in would be very difficult. Of course there is the possibility that the roll entry is a mistake and should read 126 HB anyway.

It is quite possible he may have been gassed, but without evidence it is impossible to say if this is a fact.

 

Kevin

 

Edit; Having now looked at the MIC, which should reflect the roll, the 162 was the first regimental number he was given on joining 126 HB. This was changed at the start of 1917 to give gunners, and soldiers, a unique number in their regiment. Up to that time there may have been quite a lot of gunners with the number 162 serving. You can see in my list the original numbers with the changed number after it.

Edited 3 June , 2017 by kevinrowlinson