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Remembered Today:

P1907 Scabbards


18th Battalion

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This got me thinking some more on that odd positioning of the '16 date. Normally the date is shown with the other maker/inspection markings down the LHS of the seam.

So I went looking at it again, and yes under a bright light you can just make out a very faint '10 which will be the original manufacturing date. Barely discernible to the eye.

Down the LHS side you have from top, the 'Birmingham Broad Arrow' over the makers initials AC, then the more normal Broad Arrow over an inpection mark and the date.

The marks down the RHS now appear to have been done during a repair (replacement of topmount.?) with the Broad Arrow over another Enfield inspection mark and '16.

This revelation adds even more weight to the possibilty this topmount is one of those manufacturing modifications that were implemented during the war (in LoC #17883).

Cheers, S>S

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I do see what you are getting at but I personally would err on the side of caution - even if the scabbard leather is WW1 era, this could still be a refurbishment, and the size of those rivets does suggest that this could be the case.

A much better approach, in my humble opinion, to dating this piece would be to identify when that Birmingham inspector - 7J/B - was working, which means that you and I and anyone else following this thread need to check any Birmingham-made / inspected bayonets to see what years 7J was stamping them! Alternatively, doing the same to see when that italic B was in use. I am not trying to throw cold water over your theory, SS, just trying to establish a way of finding evidence one way or the other...

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This revelation adds even more weight to the possibilty this topmount is one of those manufacturing modifications that were implemented during the war (in LoC #17883).

For anyone who may be wondering what we are on about, here again is the relevant paragraph from the List of Changes. Is this an example 'in the flesh'.? :innocent:

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For anyone who may be wondering what we are on about, here again is the relevant paragraph from the List of Changes. Is this an example 'in the flesh'.?

S>S,

Maybe so.

I took another look at LoC 17883, which is important for future reference, in that it confirms that WW1 Pattern 1907 Scabbards can have replacement lockets with a circular frog stud fitted during WW1, as some think that only WW2 scabbards had circular frog studs.

Also, on page 195 of Skennerton & Richardson's book, they list some WW1 Pattern 1907 Scabbard variations, one of which, is that on some WW1 lockets the rounded rivets were not ground flat, but were left proud, as in your example.

So far, we know that your scabbard body is original WW1, that the chape marked ' WJM ' is WW1, that a locket with a circular frog stud could certainly be WW1, that lockets with rounded proud rivets that were not grounded flat could certainly be WW1.

We also need to confirm if the scabbard fittings maker ' JB ' were a WW1 locket maker ?

It is most likely that ' JB ' is J. Brooks & Co. Ltd. of Birmingham, who were an old established manufacturing company who produced leather and metal products, and were active in Birmingham before and during WW1 ( see their 1907 and 1916 trade advertisements attached ), we also know that J. Brooks & Co. Ltd., made scabbard parts during WW2.

Like many other British manufacturing companies, J. Brooks & Co. Ltd., would have supported the war effort during WW1 by making products for the War Department, and it is very likely that if J. Brooks & Co. Ltd., made scabbard parts during WW2, they would have also made scabbard parts during WW1. I have seen an example of a WW1 WD Wire Cutter made by J. Brooks & Co. Ltd., and also WD leather goods made by J. Brooks & Co. Ltd.

Finally, as Trajan has said, can that locket inspection mark also be attributed to WW1 ?

Regards,

LF

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Well I think I may have found some more fuel for the fire.! :thumbsup: A little research shows that there are more of the same variety still 'out there'.!

It's no coincidence when you see the same figured, round stud locket, made by the same maker J.B and what looks like the same inspection.?

And then when you see the same locket attached to another wartime scabbard, clearly stamped with H.G.R 17 (Hepburn, Gale & Ross 1917) :w00t:

So ... is this where you call BINGO.!!?? :lol:

(Sorry about the fuzzy pictures but these came off the net)

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I am now a bit more convinced on this piece - and will be once that 7J/B mark is confirmed as WW1 era!

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Finally, as Trajan has said, can that locket inspection mark also be attributed to WW1 ?

Well I obviously believe that it's style is of the GW era, or I wouldn't have raised the topic.! The BSA (Birmingham) wartime inspection marks did indeed look just like that.

Here are a few examples that I pulled up to compare, firstly a bayonet ricasso (M9) then a SMLE rearsight protector (7V) and the scabbard locket (7J) all with the italic B.

So the use of the letter/numeral inspector code looks to match, and the italic B looks very similar. The locket does have some slight damage just to the left of the letter B.

EDIT. Also found some more Birmingham inspections on the SMLE 'oilers'. These brass bottles were included in every SMLE rifle, and invariably were inspected at BSA.

Cheers, S>S

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Have a gander at this site: http://militaryantiquesmuseum.com/military_antiques.php?step=20&searchunder=prodid&searchfor=11943for some more examples of figured lockets with round frog-studs, although these appear to be WW2 scabbard refurbishments, to judge from the sellers description, "These are WWII style with or without wwii manufacturer dates", along with the one scabbard mark that is shown...

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Page 194, 'British & Commonwealth Bayonets' shows two of these double seamed scabbards, approved 29 Sept 1915 as Scabbard, Sword Bayonet No.2 Mk 1; to allow two smaller pieces of leather be used to construct the body. It goes on to say that this LoC 17623 was cancelled in 1920 with the remark that 'no scabbards of this pattern have been made'. However some have been seen with British contractor's names so there were certainly small runs were made, and others were produced in Australia in the Twenties. As previously stated Skennerton & Richardson emphasise that these were merely production options. - SW

Quite by chance, as is the way it goes, I stumbled upon a thread on these at: http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-201755.html which has this excellent photograph of an example that I show here for reference from post no.3 there...

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In summary, they seem to be Lithgow-made in the years 1920-1921, although one example has a chape marked OA over an earlier Lithgow mark, so that must be a refurbishment. Note that the example shown above has a round stud, but some of those I show in post no.18 above have teardrop frog studs (although stricto sensu I suppose we should really follow the LOC here and call them 'pear-shaped'...!!!)

Trajan

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  • 1 year later...

Bump ..

Hi there ... first post :)

I'm thinking about getting a P1907 bayonet I'm seeing advertised, but what's interesting about the bayonet, is that it is teamed with what appears to be a US 1917 Enfield scabbard. Is that common ? I don't have it in hand, so I can only go off the pics ... please see attached pics, thanks :)

I'm just now learning about these, so if my question reflects that, my apologies :)

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I'm thinking about getting a P1907 bayonet I'm seeing advertised, but what's interesting about the bayonet, is that it is teamed with what appears to be a US 1917 Enfield scabbard. Is that common ? I don't have it in hand, so I can only go off the pics ... please see attached pics, thanks :)

Welcome to the Forum.

Are you in the U.K. or the U.S.A. ? as if you are particularly interested in a British WW1 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet, you may be better off buying a Pattern 1907 Bayonet complete with it's matching original scabbard rather than an American scabbard not originally manufactured for that bayonet.

Obviously, who knows what exactly happened 100 years ago or later, as I noticed that bayonet has a re-issue date of 1923 ( see attached ), or why that bayonet is in that scabbard.

With so many excellent examples of British WW1 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonets with the original matching scabbards being available, you may want to keep looking.

Regards,

LF

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Hi there, and thanks for responding :)

I'm in the US ... the person selling it is local to me, and it's more out of interest in the item and learning about it. I try to familiarize myself with this or that, finding things here or there for sale, etc ... so it's a passing interest :) In investigating it, I realized the scabbard didn't match anything I could find for the P1907, so on a hunch I searched US scabbards, and suddenly found matches in the M1917. After reading a bit of history on it, and seeing as to how the bayonet was re-issued (which I caught), I was thinking perhaps it was a US soldier, using a re-issued British blade in his US scabbard ? Being ignorant of the history, I was curious if it was common ... I read that British blades were given out in the US, but that they were restamped with US on them, if I understood that correctly. This one didn't seem to be restamped that way, so I was just wondering :)

Thanks again for your input !

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I searched US scabbards, and suddenly found matches in the M1917. After reading a bit of history on it, and seeing as to how the bayonet was re-issued (which I caught), I was thinking perhaps it was a US soldier, using a re-issued British blade in his US scabbard ?

The British bayonet to which you are referring, which had British/American use, was not the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet, but rather the Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet, which was manufactured for the British in America by both Winchester and Remington, and when America entered into WW1 and took over bayonet production at Remington and Winchester, any remaining British Pattern 1913 bayonet stocks held at the factory were turned over to the Americans, and their British markings were over-stamped with new American markings.

It was those re-issued British Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonets, plus the American M1917 bayonet which would have matched with your scabbard, not a Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet.

Regards,

LF

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The British bayonet to which you are referring, which had British/American use, was not the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet, but rather the Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet, which was manufactured for the British in America by both Winchester and Remington, and when America entered into WW1 and took over bayonet production at Remington and Winchester, any remaining British Pattern 1913 bayonet stocks held at the factory were turned over to the Americans, and their British markings were over-stamped with new American markings.

It was those re-issued British Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonets, plus the American M1917 bayonet which would have matched with your scabbard, not a Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet.

Regards,

LF

Ahhh .... gotcha :)

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Ahhh .... gotcha :)

Also, Remington did make some 100,000 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonets for the British, which carry the ' Remington ' maker's mark, see attached from my Collection.

Regards,

LF

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I was thinking perhaps it was a US soldier, using a re-issued British blade in his US scabbard ? Being ignorant of the history, I was curious if it was common ... I read that British blades were given out in the US, but that they were restamped with US on them, if I understood that correctly. This one didn't seem to be restamped that way, so I was just wondering

Here is an example from my Collection of a British Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet made by Remington, which was one of those handed back to the Americans and the ricasso over-stamped with the American ' Eagle's Head - Flaming Bomb - U.S. ' markings.

Regards,

LF

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Here is an example from my Collection of a British Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet made by Remington, which was one of those handed back to the Americans and the ricasso over-stamped with the American ' Eagle's Head - Flaming Bomb - U.S. ' markings.

Regards,

LF

Ah ... and I can see the scabbard there as well :)

Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it !

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  • 10 months later...
Guest Passionate Researcher

Hi,

Having spent hours reading all your threads and anything else I can find on the P1907 scabbard which I have aquired I would like to raise some points.  

 

It is the double stitched version, front and back, in a red/brown leather and has the manufacturers mark H.G.R '15 (Hepburn, Gale and Ross).  It also has the pear shaped frog stud which was changed under the LOC 17883 dated 19th November 1915 to round.  As the LOC 17623, dated 29th September 1915, first allowed the use of two smaller pieces of leather to be used which was then cancelled in 1920 it would appear that this is an early version of this construction made in 1915.  It has been suggested that the double stitching, front and back, was an Australian version, manufactured in the early 1920's.  As my scabbard was manufactured by a British manufacturer in 1915 with the pear-shaped frog stud this seems to contradict the thinking that they were only manufactured in Australia.  I would be pleased to hear if my facts and assumptions, regarding my scabbard, are correct, or not, based largely on reading blogs like this and, of course, any comments you might have.  I have no military experience but am fascinated  by all types of equipment and tools and have the time to spend researching. 

I append below a complete list of all the marks and features I found on the scabbard to give you a better overview of its history.

 

The manufacturers mark stamped on the right of the central seam on the rear of the leather scabbard body, H.G.R.  15 .

On he left hand side of the seam, also on the rear, is an inspection mark with a Broad Arrow above a Crown, under the crown appears to be xRo and below that ’15.

 

The Locket has the pear-shaped frog stud.

Under the frog stud just above the wire lace is an inspection mark, a Crown above X1 over ‘15.

On the rear of the Locket just above the wire lace is a single numeral 2.

Possibly denoting this as ‘Scabbard, Sword Bayonet No.2. (The Mk 1, presumably, would not be noted until there was a Mk 2)

 

The Chape, formed to slide over the raised seams front and back has a very tiny inspection mark right on the end of a Crown above a B over a 4.

 

The Bayonet that was in the scabbard is not the original as it is dated April 1910 but still provided hours of research.  Unfortunately it has been used for reenacting requiring the point and sharp edge to be ground off but never the less an interesting project.

 

I can post photo's if anyone would like to see any, just let me know.

 

Kind Regards,

PR

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Just one observation: If I recall correctly the change in stud shape was an optional manufacturing simplification not a required change and certainly one finds pear shaped buttons with leathers dated after 1915.

So I don't think there is a necessary contradiction in dates.

Chris

 

Edit: Skennerton and Richardson re circular stud: p195 (lower right) "These relaxations in standards were offered as alternatives to the contractors, and therefore not necessarily all embodied in manufacture from that point in time"

Edited by 4thGordons
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PR, it sounds like you have a regular example of the Scabbard, Sword-Bayonet, Pattern 1907, No.2 Mark I which was approved in 1915 as per LoC #17623. None of the details you mention contradict any of the established timelines for the manufacture of P1907 scabbards. These No.2 scabbards of British manufacture are less commonly seen, the majority that are seen today being the relatively common Australian made version of the same scabbard. With your example being in the original brown leather I am sure there would be collectors here that would be interested in seeing your photos. 

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This thread had me revisiting my P.'07 scabbards, and the discussion of allowed war-time changes had me pondering the number of possible chape/locket/stud configurations that might be out there.

If,

C = chape; L = locket; f = figured; s = square; P = pear-shaped; R = round,

then the following combinations are possible.

 

A.  Lf   Cf   P

B.  Lf   Cf   R

C.  Ls   Cs  P

D.  Ls   Cs  R

E.  Ls   Cf   P

F.   Ls   Cf   R

G.  Lf   Cs   P

H.  Lf   Cs   R

 

So, even without considering small/large frog-stud, ground/unground rivets there are 8 possible variants. 

Of these, I have examples of A, D and G.  

Has anybody seen types B, C, E, F and H ?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

Edited by JMB1943
typo
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  • 3 months later...

The double seamed scabbards were originally UK pattern but made for a short period of time to allow more scabbards to be made from a hide. After a short period the UK pattern was canceled however Australia continued to make the pattern right up into the 20's - I would have thought they would have had a lot of hides but probably more sheep hides than cow. The UK made ones are not common. I had a fully refurbished one for Korea that has phosphate fittings

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