P1907 Scabbards

[Medaler]

Hi LF,

Front and back on my example. I will dig it out an post a picture.

I am finding this thread very interesting as I know very little about scabbards.

Regards,

Mike

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Front and back on my example. I will dig it out an post a picture.

Mike

Mike,

Post a photograph if you can, as you have the 1920/21 Australian made Pattern 1907 scabbard variation with the double stitching front and back. You may see the maker's mark ' Lithgow ' or an ' A ' within a star.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

Regarding scabbards stitched down both the front and back, at least one was made - I have one!

I picked up a whole bunch of 1907 scabbards about 15 years ago, to pair up with a load of bayonets I had bought previously that did not have them. I bought the double stitched one as a "spare" because I thought it might be a rarity.

I must admit, I don't have it to hand at the moment, but I will dig it out and examine it if anyone wants any details.

Cheers,

Mike

Would that and the others have their metal-parts painted black?

[trajan]

The other ' double stitched ' Pattern 1907 Scabbard was made in Australia in the early 1920s, and was made differently to the British type in that 2 leather strips were again used but with the Australian version the joining seam runs down the middle of the scabbard both front and back, unlike the British version where the joining seams are on both side edges of the scabbard.

Although the Australian ' double stitched ' scabbard is not WW1 vintage, but rather early 1920s, collectors would still find it an interesting variation.

Post a photograph if you can, as you have the 1920/21 Australian made Pattern 1907 scabbard variation with the double stitching front and back. You may see the maker's mark ' Lithgow ' or an ' A ' within a star.

Thankee kindly LF for that information! This sounds like the ones this dealer has, with front and back stitching. Interesting, though, that some of the one's he has have tear-drop frog studs and others round. I'll see if I can get any information on any markings.

Trajan

[Medaler]

Sorry about this, it is taking me longer to locate mine than I thought it would.

Cheers,

Mike

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thankee kindly LF for that information! This sounds like the ones this dealer has, with front and back stitching. Interesting, though, that some of the one's he has have tear-drop frog studs and others round. I'll see if I can get any information on any markings.

Trajan

Trajan,

The Australian 1920/21 Lithgow P1907 Sword-Bayonet Scabbards with the ' double stitching ', should have a small round frog stud and straight edges to the Locket and Chape.

The Australian WW2 period scabbards have a large round frog stud, and 3 rivet heads showing on the Locket.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

Trajan,

The Australian 1920/21 Lithgow P1907 Sword-Bayonet Scabbards with the ' double stitching ', should have a small round frog stud and straight edges to the Locket and Chape.

The Australian WW2 period scabbards have a large round frog stud, and 3 rivet heads showing on the Locket.

Regards,

LF

Yes, I realise that round studs should be on post WW1 scabbards but one of those shown in the photograph on post 18 certainly and a second (at the top) possibly have tear-drop frog studs. I guess they could be reconditioned? I do have one WW1 1907 scabbard that had the locket with frog stud glued back on the wrong way, so that the seam is at the front - and I think S&R show one like that also?

Trajan

[18th Battalion]

Anyone have any ideas about this scabbard, the chape and throat are brass and are apparantly not secured with staples, at least the chape isn't?

It's listed at an auctioneers.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Anyone have any ideas about this scabbard, the chape and throat are brass and are apparantly not secured with staples, at least the chape isn't?

It's listed at an auctioneers.

Skennerton & Richardson's ' British & Commonwealth Bayonets ' reference book, page 346 :-

" Some Indian Patt. 1907 scabbards have been noted with locally made brass chapes and lockets. On some of these, Ordnance or maker's marks are evident, indicating that it was an official variation. "

The bayonet frog, looks like a ' Slade Wallace ' type.

Regards,

LF

[ragnorak72]

I recently bought a WW1 era scabbard which has the marking W J. I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about it? There do not appear to be any other markings. Is the green paint original?

Edited 20 December , 2014 by ragnorak72

[trajan]

I recently bought a WW1 era scabbard which has the marking W J. I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about it? There do not appear to be any other markings. Is the green paint original?...

I'm surprised one of the regular P.1907 lads hasn't picked this one up yet!

My feeling and impression only, is that green paint is a WW2 addition. None of my WW1 tear-drops or any that I have seen show any paint, except for one that was painted black. Likewise, as far as I can recall, none of the WW1 photographs I have seen showing P.1907 scabbards have any indication that they were painted - the metal bits all look shiny!

Can't help with the "W.J." marking on the locket - is there one also on the chape?

[ragnorak72]

No there don't appear to be any markings on the chape. The W.J. only became legible after a fair bit of cleaning. Should I attempt to remove the paint or just leave it as it is?

Could someone please give me some info on the marking on the P1907 bayonet which I have.

I think I'm right in saying the markings above mean that the bayonet was made in August 1917 by Wilkinson?

However I don't know what the markings above mean. Anyone able to help?

Edited 20 December , 2014 by ragnorak72

[Lancashire Fusilier]

No there don't appear to be any markings on the chape. The W.J. only became legible after a fair bit of cleaning. Should I attempt to remove the paint or just leave it as it is?

Could someone please give me some info on the marking on the P1907 bayonet which I have.

I would not remove any existing finishes, just leave it as it is.

As far as your bayonets markings are concerned, these are standard British markings, with the 1st photo showing the Royal Crown and GR Cypher for King George V - the bayonet's Pattern date of 1907 - the bayonets issue date of 8 17 for August 1917 - the maker's name of Wilkinson.

The 2nd set of markings are - the Government ownership ' Broad Arrow ' mark - various inspection marks - the ' X ' Bend Blade Test Mark to show that the blade has passed that blade bend test.

Regards,

LF

[ragnorak72]

I would not remove any existing finishes, just leave it as it is.

As far as your bayonets markings are concerned, these are standard British markings, with the 1st photo showing the Royal Crown and GR Cypher for King George V - the bayonet's Pattern date of 1907 - the bayonets issue date of 8 17 for August 1917 - the maker's name of Wilkinson.

The 2nd set of markings are - the Government ownership ' Broad Arrow ' mark - various inspection marks - the ' X ' Bend Blade Test Mark to show that the blade has passed that blade bend test.

Regards,

LF

Thanks for letting me know what the markings mean. I'll leave the scabbard as is then.

[trajan]

I would not remove any existing finishes, just leave it as it is. ... The 2nd set of markings are - the Government ownership ' Broad Arrow ' mark - various inspection marks - the ' X ' Bend Blade Test Mark to show that the blade has passed that blade bend test.

Quite agree, leave the paint as is!

Just one minor addition, if I may LF, to note for Ragnorak, that the 'E' under the inspection marks indicates an Enfield-based inspector.

[4thGordons]

In WWII painting was authorised as a corrosion prevention method on SMLEs. Prior to the war the rifles were disassembled annually and the metal covered by the wooden furniture was inspected, wiped down and greased. As a wartime expedient painting of these parts was allowed. The colour of paint used varies from sand through khaki to pea green. This is often touted as evidence of "desert use" (if sand/khaki) or "jungle use" (if varying shades of green) - in fact it was a rust preventive measure applied in all theatres and I suspect whatever paint was to hand was used (although pea-green seems to be a particularly Indian variant) I have several SMLEs with the residual of this paint and similarly a couple of P1907 bayonets and although the order I have a copy of authorising the painting applies to rifles, I suspect it was extended to their accompanying bayonets. I have several painted (No4 rifle) bayonet scabbards

I would leave it as is, but I suspect the paint is not WWI vintage but later.

Chris

[trajan]

Thanks 4thG for that input. There have been a lot of empty P.1907 scabbards coming out from Greece / Cyprus recently, with a mix of teardrops and round frog studs, and all the ones I have seen have black painted metal parts. I had assumed that they were WWII-period.

[shippingsteel]

It would be interesting to see if anyone has an example of the original brown leather bodied scabbard (or a similar GW dated leather) with a large round stud on the locket.

Bringing this thread back to the top again, as I think I'm going to need some help. I think I may have fallen into one of these, or at least a 'possible suspect'.!

On a recent buying trip I came across a chap who was offering for sale a very scarce NZ marked P1907 (One of the originals that came back with the troops)

From the photos it looked to be paired with a brown leather scabbard. He was talking WW2 era, so I immediately was thinking an Aussie 'Mangrovite' version.

When I arrived to inspect it, I first saw the round stud, thinking to myself 'yup that's it'. Imagine my surprise when I saw all the British markings down the seam.!

I guess it's not beyond the realms of possibility. When you unearth that scarce variation that's been 'hiding out' for so long, that it comes with original scabbard.

So anyway what have I got.? Luckily this one is in quite good condition, bit dirty but that cleaned off very nicely, leaving all the component parts clearly marked.

Firstly, the leather shows some Broad Arrows & the letters AC for the maker A. Cooper of Birmingham. A couple of inspection marks and a clearly stamped '16.

Then the topmount with the round stud, which is figured (ie. rounded NOT squared off) and has the three exposed rivets which are flattened and smoothed off.

The metalwork has the letters JB stamped on one side above the staple (maker?) and on the other side has the normal Birmingham inspection with the italic B.

The diameter of the circular stud is 18.5 mm as measured with calipers. The chape is also stamped with the letters WJM (maker) in a diamond near the staple.

So now for the big question ... is this an example of the circular stud scabbard that was made during the war OR is it just a later period replacement topmount.?

What got me curious is the 1916 date, the apparently original brown leather, and the link between the leather maker and the topmount inspection (Birmingham)

Has anyone ever seen the JB stamp before, or know which company that stands for.? I was wondering if it could perhaps be the JB Brooks (also of Birmingham)

The same goes for the maker of the chape WJM. I have seen this one before on the early teardrop topmount fittings, so they are clearly WW1 period contractors.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

JB Brooks of Birmingham had several WWII contract to provide MkII scabbards (34,000 in 1942, 57,728(black finish specified also in 1942) and 25,000 in 1944)

There were 116,000 scabbards repaired during WWII according to Skennerton's figures in British Small Arms of WWII

I am not sure I have seen the JB mark but I can have a look through mine this weekend.

Sounds interesting

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Thanks Chris, I would appreciate you checking some of yours. I don't have that many round stud scabbards as for me they are normally 'a later period'.!

I would be particularly interested in the number of round studs seen with figured-end topmounts. Also the size of the studs, mine looks 'medium' 18.5mm

EDIT. The main difference in what JB Brooks was doing with scabbards during WW2, is that their production was stamped with the common M44 code.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The chape is also stamped with the letters WJM (maker) in a diamond near the staple.

The same goes for the maker of the chape WJM. I have seen this one before on the early teardrop topmount fittings, so they are clearly WW1 period contractors.

S>S,

I checked a sample box containing 20 different WW1 Pattern 1907 bayonets with scabbards, all different makes.

Out of that sample 20, I only found one scabbard with the ' WJM Diamond ' maker's mark, which correctly, was clearly marked on both the Locket and the Chape.

The scabbard was a Pattern 1907 No.I Mk II ( with the 3 rivets in the Chape showing ) and the tear drop frog stud. The bayonet in the scabbard is a Pattern 1907 Enfield Sword Bayonet with the Hooked Quillon still attached, the bayonet's pommel is marked ' D^ ' for Australian Service.

With only 1 out of a sample of 20, it is probably not a common WW1 scabbard mark.

Hope that helps.

Photo attached.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

Thank you for that LF. That again confirms what I had seen as well, that the WJM Diamond is found on the early teardrop scabbards. So that's the chape sorted.!

Here are some shots of the markings on my scabbard. Firstly the J.B on the topmount, the BSA inspection mark and stud, and the Broad Arrow's and date of '16.

As you can see the scabbard leather is quite dark from age, but it is NOT black. It has that darkish brown tinge to it. The original scabbards were of brown leather.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Yet another field for somebody to research!

I checked my very few round stud and three-rivet scabbards just in case and they all have lockets with straight bottoms(!). However, I do have a teardrop three-rivet with the locket marked WJ in a diamond and the chape marked EFD, which I assume has been put together during a refurbishment, presumably in 1924, which is the date on the leather. Another teardrop three-rivet one of mine has both locket and chape stamped 'RE', and there is a '20' under the crown on the leather, which I assume is an Inspector's mark - unless this is yet another refurbishment, of 1920!

The point being, might this one of yours also be a similar refurbishment? One possible clue as to what is going on here would be to check your bayonets to see if you have that Birmingham Inspector's mark on one of them, which (in theory at least!) will give you the approximate era of the locket. Note that 4G has drawn your attention already to the JB WWII contract - although we cannot be certain, I guess, that JB is for JB Brooks (although on balance of probabilities it could very well be). Also, your scabbard does seem to have double marks - is there no date on the on the other mark?

TTFN,

Trajan

[trajan]

SS's questions having made me look more carefully at my P.1907-type scabbards got me thinking on another associated topic, namely, when was the LOC issued for waxing scabbards and for the application of the 'W' mark? Would this be the LOC 26030 that S&R list (p400), re: treatment of leather scabbards P.1907 Mk.II?

That aside, might be worth putting on record for others looking in this thread, L.O.C No. A1621, S&R, same page, dated 08 03 1926, re: P. 1907 Mk II scabbards, introduction of black finish in place of brown.

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

The point being, might this one of yours also be a similar refurbishment? .... Also, your scabbard does seem to have double marks - is there no date on the on the other mark?

This got me thinking some more on that odd positioning of the '16 date. Normally the date is shown with the other maker/inspection markings down the LHS of the seam.

So I went looking at it again, and yes under a bright light you can just make out a very faint '10 which will be the original manufacturing date. Barely discernible to the eye.

Down the LHS side you have from top, the 'Birmingham Broad Arrow' over the makers initials AC, then the more normal Broad Arrow over an inpection mark and the date.

The marks down the RHS now appear to have been done during a repair (replacement of topmount.?) with the Broad Arrow over another Enfield inspection mark and '16.

This revelation adds even more weight to the possibilty this topmount is one of those manufacturing modifications that were implemented during the war (in LoC #17883).

Cheers, S>S