Twelve Tree Copse Cemetery

[Rosemary Clarke]

I have a photograph of the memorial stone to Private - formerly Sergeant - John Robins who lies in Twelve Tree Copse Cemetery,

As well as the familiar personal details, the stone bears the inscription ' Their glory shall not be blotted out'.

I am wondering whether this is a standard inscription for the area, or am I being fanciful in suspecting it may have been chosen by his family and relating to Robins fate? He was executed for disobedience.

Rosemary

[Kate Wills]

Rosemary,

This is a very common inscription, especially on Gallipoli, where entire rows of headstones bear this phrase, which, if I remember rightly, comes from Ecclesiastes. Personally, although I can sympathsize with the message, I find the phrase itself totally unattractive, bringing to mind leaky pens and stern looks from teacher.

[Terry Denham]

The inscription would have been selected by the next-of-kin or otherwise it would have had none at all.

However, the same phrases do keep cropping up which makes me wonder if there was a suggested list published at the time for people to select from.

[Andrew P]

I can recall reading in John Laffin's book on the various epitaph's chosen for soldiers of the AIF, that the War Graves Commission had 3 or 4 standard verses to choose from if the family didn't know what to write.

I'll try and dig this book out(in a box after a recent move) and see if I can find any more info. If someone else doesn't confirm in the meantime.

Cheers

Andrew

[Greenwoodman]

Relax, Andrew. I found a copy remaindered in Sydney in 2001. Here is the relevant para:-

"The Imperial War Graves Commission helpfully suggested certain standard epitaphs, such as:-

THY WILL BE DONE

or

GREATER LOVE HATH NO MAN

THAN THIS, THAT HE

LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS

or

SAFE IN THE ARMS OF JESUS

or

THE LORD GIVETH AND

THE LORD TAKETH AWAY

or

FOR GOD, KING AND COUNTRY

Some people gladly accepted this help and we find many headstones that are so inscribed."

Longworth's "The Unending Vigil" is more forthcoming on this particular topic.

"Hence the formulae "Known to be buried in this cemetery" or "Buried near this spot", or, in the case of graves lost or destroyed through bombardment, Kipling's determined motto "Their glory shall not be blotted out".

No reason why a standard inscription could not have been chosen by a family.

[Marco]

A standard inscription for a lost grave. He is either burried in the cemetery but not under memorial stone, or in front of the row of memorial stones there is a small obilisk giving details of the original cemetery they were burried in and where their graves were lost. In that case he is not in twelve trees at all.

Regards,

Marco

[Terry Denham]

It seems that we are talking about two different things here.

I thought the original query was about a Personal Inscription appearing at the bottom of a headstone. These were the ones selected by relatives.

The Superscriptions being referred to above which appear at the top of some headstones are a different matter. These conform to a set list of authorised phrases to indicate that the person commemorated does not lie under the headstones for numerous reasons (ie "Believed to be buried in this cemetery" or "Buried near this spot" or " Buried in xyz Cemetery").

These two types of inscription should not be confused.

[Marco]

As Kate I only recall seeing this phrase for entire rows, usually against the backwall of a cemetery, e.g. memorial stones and not grave markers. This made me believe it was not choisen by the family but a standard phrase for a lost grave like the 'known unto god' for the unidentified. Naturally I can be wrong... I'll have a look at some slides tonight.

Regards,

Marco

[paul guthrie]

Their Glory Shall Not Be Blotted Out is a standard IWGC statement for men whose graves are definitely in the cemetery but location not known or when it is probable they are buried there " Believed To Be Buried In This Cemetery" as Terry says.

The other question is could a family choose these words for a man known to be in a given grave and I do not know, it would confuse the original purpose though.

CWGC lists John Benjamin Ash of Lexington, Kentucky who served in France with Canadian Forestry Corps as buried in Cove Haven Cemetery, Lexington. If he does not have a headstone of any kind I hope to get a " Believed To Be Buried" stone since at one time they were satisfied he was there. The records of this black cemetery are quite bad and graves are lost.

[Marco]

“for men whose graves are definitely in the cemetery” I beg to differ Paul. They are also used on memorial stones for people known (or thought) to be buried in a cemetery that was discontinued. If no remains were found where they should be this soldier is commemorated in the cemetery where the found remains are brought to and given a special memorial. The obelisk I mentioned gives details of the discontinued cemetery.

Regards,

Marco

[Terry Denham]

Sorry Paul, Marco is correct.

The phrase "Their glory shall not be blotted out" is the standard CWGC phrase for when a grave has been destroyed and can no longer be found. If the grave is known or believed to be in the cemetery, the phrase "Believed to be buried in this cemetery" is used.

The "Glory" headstones are usually erected in the nearest cemetery to where the grave was believed to be. If six or more are in a cemetery, they are grouped around a memorial block which bears a suitable inscription. This is known as a Duhallow Block (the first were sited in Duhallow ADS Cemetery, Ypres). In these cases the headstones do not bear a superscription.

[Marco]

I stand corrected too, the information does not only comes in the form of an obelisk:

WULVERGHEM LINDENHOEK ROAD MC

WYTSCHAETE MC

Regards,

Marco

[Rosemary Clarke]

Many thanks to Kate and all for some very useful information. Below is the complete wording on the stone, just to clarify, as I seem to have caused some confusion:-

KNOWN TO BE

BURIED IN THIS CEMETERY

9610 PRIVATE

J ROBINS

WILTSHIRE REGIMENT

2 JANUARY 1916

THEIR GLORY SHALL NOT BE BLOTTED OUT

Given the reasons put forward for various types of wording of 'superscriptions', and personal inscriptions, do these two not appear to contradict each other?

Incidentally, Gallipoli is a new area as far as my own research is concerned (few SAD cases) and I do not recall having seen this wording elsewhere; hence my question.

Rosemary

[MartinWills]

The wording "their glory shall not be blotted out" does occur elsewhere other than Gallipoli but as Kate said it is unusual in that it occurs so many times, often in row upon row and not just (as I recall) on Special Memorials. I have long wondered if there was some specific reason for it receiving so much use there since it is not used in the same extensive way in Europe, as far as I am aware. Not all Gallipoli stones have inscriptions and it does seem strange that it was used to such a wide extent on the peninsula. There is a second phrase that also occurs commonly on Gallipoli but it escapes my mind at present.

I don't recall any memorial blocks on Gallipoli and it is also worth remembering that "unknowns" do not have a headstone at all on Gallipoli either. If I can remember I will try and enquire further when I am next out there. I will also try and sort through some pictures of Gallipoli and headstones to see if I can find some examples of the inscription in different cases, but it may take some time.

As for the provenance it is a part quotation from Ecclesiasticus. The full text (rather lengthy) follows and is well worth reading but you will see from the tail end that it juxtaposes with the inscription on the "altar stones".

Let us now praise famous men,

And our fathers that begat us.

The Lord hath wrought in them great glory:

Even his mighty power from the beginning.

Such as did bear rule in their kingdoms,

Men renowned for their power;

Giving counsel by their understanding,

And declaring prophecies:

Leaders of the people by their counsels,

Men of learning for the people by their knowledge,

Wise and eloquent in their instructions:

Such as sought out musical tunes,

And uttered verses in writing:

Rich men furnished with ability,

Living peaceably in their habitations.

All these were honoured in their generations

And were the glory in their times.

There be of them, that have left a name behind them,

To declare their praises.

And some there be, which have no memorial;

Who are perished, as though they have never been,

And are become as though they had never been born;

And their children after them.

But these were merciful men,

Whose righteousness hath not been forgotten;

With their seed it shall remain continually,

And their inheritance to their children's children.

Their seed standeth fast within the covenant,

And their children for their sakes.

Their memory shall remain forever,

And their glory shall not be blotted out.

Their bodies are buried in peace;

But their name shall liveth for evermore.

Ecclesiasticus 44.

[Terry Denham]

On the evidence given above by Rosemary, it would seem that this stone is a standard 'Special Memorial' type.

The superscription gives the reason for its presence and the 'Glory' inscriptions looks to all intents and purposes to be a normal 'Personal Inscription' as requested by the n-o-k.

There is no reason why this phrase should not have been selected by the relatives just because it was well used for other purposes. However, it does back up the idea that there was a selection of stock phrases for relatives who were not sure what to have inscribed.

[Rosemary Clarke]

Further thanks to Terry and Martin for this further and detailed clarification. Martin must now be suffering from WPO's cramp.

Much appreciated.