trajan Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 This is a W/1916 84/98 n.A. I came by. The scabbard marking I get - UV. 3. 72 for Unteroffizier-Vorschule company 3 rack 72. - but the FLZ 1036? One suggestion has been Flieger Zeugdepot, another is 'Fernlenkzug' (naval units on the North Sea coast using radio-controlled weapons), and a third is Feld Lazaret Zug. Other bayonet collectors have provided information that FLZ bayonets are known with serial numbers between FLZ 690 and FLZ 1278, so a unit with the need for at least 1278 bayonets... Any ideas? In anticipation...??? And with thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 Goodness. I'm stumped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 What about the same logic as before, company 10 bayonet 36? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 Trajan, you need an expert. On this forum you can get assistance http://feldgrau.pytalhost.com/vbcms.php Regards Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2014 What about the same logic as before, company 10 bayonet 36? Ian No 'stop' markings between the numbers... Also, in my limited experience, company and rack numbers are smaller, plus we are lacking a unit number... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2014 Trajan, you need an expert. On this forum you can get assistance http://feldgrau.pytalhost.com/vbcms.php Regards Fritz Thanks Fritz, I'll try there later! Trajan PS: I used to work for the NSachs. Amt fur Bodendenkmalpflege and have fond memories of Hannover - especially the beer, which I think was called Herrenhausen?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 PS: I used to work for the NSachs. Amt fur Bodendenkmalpflege and have fond memories of Hannover - especially the beer, which I think was called Herrenhausen?! So it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 Sorry to hijack your thread Julian but I have been offered a high eared 98/05 with markings 2E55.2K 823. Also a matching number sawbask 98/05 with markings 164.R.4.140 Anyone got an idea of what these markings mean? Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 164.R.4.140 means 164. Reserve-Infanterieregiment, 4. Kompagnie, weapon Nr. 140. Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 164.R.4.140 means 164. Reserve-Infanterieregiment, 4. Kompagnie, weapon Nr. 140. Fritz Sorry, I have to correct me. 164.R.4.140 means 164. (Infanterie-) Regiment, 4. Kompagnie, weapon Nr. 140 IR 164 came from Hannover, so it was Prussian. Fritz P.S. Trajan, your problem is my problem. My experts are still discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2014 Sorry to hijack your thread Julian but I have been offered a high eared 98/05 with markings 2E55.2K 823. Also a matching number sawbask 98/05 with markings 164.R.4.140 Anyone got an idea of what these markings mean? Cheers, Aleck No problem, marrer! But can't think where to start with that first one, but E is normally 'Erstaz' on a pre-WWI and wartime issue. Are these two sets of markings though? As for the other, I see Fritz has helped you there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2014 P.S. Trajan, your problem is my problem. My experts are still discussing. Thanks Fritz! Trajan PS: And thanks also for the label photographs... Ah, memories...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 24 February , 2014 Share Posted 24 February , 2014 Hello Trajan, here is a preliminary report. Can you understand it? Maybe your Google translator helps. If not, then ask me please. 1) Seitengewehr und Scheide gehören von der Bestempelung her nicht zusammen.2) Das gezeigte Seitengewehr 84/98n.A. wurde ab 1915 eingeführt. Zu der Zeit wurdenregulär keine Truppenstempel mehr geschlagen. Einige Waffenmeister / Einheiten habenaber dennoch gestempelt. Es kamen neue Einheiten auf, die in der Stempelvorschrift nochnicht erfasst waren, wie z.B. die Flak.FLz. soll für Flakzug stehen. Die '1036' könnte zeitgenossisch dazugehören ( wenn auchunvorschriftsmäßig zu groß ). Es ist keine Registriernummer des Herstellers J.A. Henckels,sondern wenn dann eine Waffennummer dieser milit. Einheit.Eine Stempelfälschung zur Wertsteigerung kann man nicht ausschließen.3) Die Markierung an der Scheide halte ich für 'aus einem Guss'. Buchstaben undZifferngröße entsprechen der Norm. IV. steht für das IV. Armeekorps.Eine 3. und gleichzeitig eine 72. kann ich nach den mir bekannten Stempelvorschriftennicht deuten. Entweder ist es eine mir nicht bekannte Stempelweise für eine Einheit beimIV. Armeekorps oder eine komplett nachträglich angebrachte Stempelung zur Aufwertung.Eine reguläre ausländische Stempelung schließe ich aus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2014 Hello Trajan, here is a preliminary report. Can you understand it? Many, many thanks Fritz! Yes, no problems with understanding the message, and it is very informative! I never would have thought of a 'Flakzug' in a WWI context! Sounds perfecly plausible... However, it is certainly a 'UV' mark on the scabbard, not a 'IV', so 'UV. 3. 72' for Unteroffizier-Vorschule company 3 rack/weapon 72. Please pass on my thanks to whoever sorted this one out. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 24 February , 2014 Share Posted 24 February , 2014 Hi Julian, my special agents accept your opinion in spite of regulation Unteroffizierschulen und Unteroffiziervorschulen had to mark "U". Kind regards Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2014 Fritz,Vielen danke!Na ja, aber, bitte, glaubst du mir! Es ist hierbei in meine hande! UV.3.72.! But I think the grip-screws are the wrong way round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2014 The extra photos tend to highlight the imperfections of the stamping on the bayonet crossguard. The stampings are not "period" ... (and I would suggest "later" or even "much later") The illustration of a page from the the Vorschrift uber das Stempeln der Handwaffen helps to show that everything was regulated ... even including the specific heights of the numerals. Cheers, S>S Agreed, but only up to a point, as there are enough exceptions to test that rule about German efficiency and strict adherence to regulations! Carter, for example, lists saw-backed bayonets with the 'wrong' number of teeth, and I have one with the teeth going from right to left instead of the regulation left to right. And as Fritz's source commented, "Das gezeigte Seitengewehr 84/98n.A. wurde ab 1915 eingeführt. Zu der Zeit wurden regulär keine Truppenstempel mehr geschlagen. Einige Waffenmeister / Einheiten haben aber dennoch gestempelt." If such a Waffenmeister did so with what he had to hand then there is no reason for him to follow regulations on this matter! As for "period" or not, well, I am at work, and so I can't check at the moment with Williams' books, but I have seen enough variations in stamping to question the implication that there was 100% regularity in adhering to the official letter/number size, etc. There are certainly other examples of this deep stamping and which, to the best of my knowledge, have all been accepted as "period" (and note that Fritz's German source seems happy with this being "period"!). As for variations in following the official regulations, well, a quick check of my records here on my office computer provides an example. See Lübbe, 'Deutsche Seitengewehre', p. 130, no. 146a, for a 84/98 n.A. with scabbard stamped UV.3.48, and Wheeler, 'Seitengewehr', p.85, for a 84/98 n.A. with a scabbard stamped U.V.2.77: the Lubbe one and mine are just 'UV', the Wheeler one is 'U[dot]V', I honestly don't know what to make of this one and I did wonder if it might be a Weimar-period stamp, but could not find anything Weimarish that might fit - and, of course, it is certainly not a police mark... Incidentally, for the record, I attach a photograph of another of these FLZ stamps from an American collection, and to date I only know of one other (unseen) example, marked FLZ 690... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2014 ... I am just offering an opinion and you are welcome to do with it what you want (free of charge)... Cheers, S>S And I am just offering evidence to counter the belief you hold to that everything in the Reichsheer army - including markings - was fully regulated down to crossing the last t and dotting the last dot, and the sizes thereof, and which evidence is likewise offered for free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 March , 2014 Jeff Noll, in his The Imperial German Regimental Markings, has listed a marking F.L.P.x, which he identifies as 'Festungs-Landwehr-Pionier-X Armee Korps. So, perhaps a Festungs Landwehr Z*** piece? The first thing that comes to my mind is perhaps Zossen? Although better known for its role in WWII, it was a Mannschaftslager in WW1(and where the IRB recruited among Irish prisoners)... Trajan PS: I bet that those of you who know just how hard it is to see a copy of this book anywhere are guessing how I found that one? Googly-googly-do linked me to one that was a closed sale (I think it must be a first edition, as it sold for only USD 20, not the usual USD 600+(!) for the second edition), and - serendipity! - the page listing this mark was open to view! But sadly no other FL markings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 3 March , 2015 GBF member Motojosh posted this one recently, another Flakzug piece - but an Ersatz! - and I show it here with his permission! Can't be much doubt about the identity of the unit here, despite the scepticism expressed about the three examples with an abbreviated version of the mark. Trajan PS: I'll cross-post to Unit markings for completeness of record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 29 January , 2019 Share Posted 29 January , 2019 On 21/02/2014 at 19:15, trajan said: This is a W/1916 84/98 n.A. I came by. The scabbard marking I get - UV. 3. 72 for Unteroffizier-Vorschule company 3 rack 72. - but the FLZ 1036? One suggestion has been Flieger Zeugdepot, another is 'Fernlenkzug' (naval units on the North Sea coast using radio-controlled weapons), and a third is Feld Lazaret Zug. Other bayonet collectors have provided information that FLZ bayonets are known with serial numbers between FLZ 690 and FLZ 1278, so a unit with the need for at least 1278 bayonets... Any ideas? In anticipation...??? And with thanks in advance! EXCELLENT BAYONET!!!! I LOVE THE UNIT MARKINGS... regards D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2019 On 29/01/2019 at 22:29, zuluwar2006 said: EXCELLENT BAYONET!!!! I LOVE THE UNIT MARKINGS... regards D. Thanks! I think this was my first ever unit-marked one! Saw it in the UK and had to buy it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 31 January , 2019 Share Posted 31 January , 2019 Julian Here is mu U. V. Marked bayonet... Regards D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2019 Lovely! That will be for the Unteroffizier-Vorschule Marienwerder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 1 February , 2019 Share Posted 1 February , 2019 2 hours ago, trajan said: Lovely! That will be for the Unteroffizier-Vorschule Marienwerder That is correct Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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