Serjeant or Sergeant?

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, Uncle George said:

R. Money Barnes ... agrees with Jim Clay: .”

 

Wise man, Colonel Barnes.

[Uncle George]

14 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Wise man, Colonel Barnes.

 

Major Barnes. An Honorary Major.  I did some research on the good Major which ended up on ‘Lives of the First World War’. So now it’s not accessible. 

[Steven Broomfield]

Well, he should have been a Colonel.

[Muerrisch]

Were he here, he might agree,

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Uncle George said:

R. Money Barnes, in his ‘A History of the Regiments and Uniforms of the British Army’ (1950), agrees with Jim Clay: “SERGEANT: From French Sergent, derived from Latin serviens = serving.”

Both Jim Clay and Barnes are perfectly correct. What seems to be overlooked is that exactly the same statement applies to the 'J' spelling; SERJEANT: From the French Serjant, derived from Latin serviens = serving. There are multiple recorded Old French spellings of sergeant including both Sergent and Serjant, with the same Etymology originating from the Latin Serviens.

[laughton]

Thanks for this topic and the Google search engine which revealed the discussion!

 

As a Canadain, I had thought the British always used the "J" whereas we Canadians use the "G".

 

Searching the CWGC I was checking on those holding the rank of "Company Serjeant Major" only to find they are all listed as "Company Sergeant Major". Raised my curiosity. It can trip you up, as the CWGC database does have a listing for CSM's with the "J". There are 3,243 of them listed as such (CWGC Link), mainly in the UK, but that failed to reveal those in the Royal Marine Light Infantry (CWGC Link). Those ten (10) have the "G" (CWGC Link).

 

If you just check on all the G" based CSM's there are 466 of them (CWGC Link) but only fourteen (14) in the UK. The extra four are expalined by two that are an alias, one a Rhodesian policeman and one a Royal Marine Engineer.

 

One question always raises another, as I now wonder why the CWGC lists the RMLI CSMs as "NAVY" if the left the ADMIRALTY on 29 April 1916 (LLT Link)? Tradition?

[Muerrisch]

Company Serg/jeant Major is not a rank although often shown as such. It is an appointment.

Between late 1913 and early 1915 the rank was colour sergeant, after that it was Warrant Officer Class II.

 

I didn't know the RMLI left the Royal Navy, ever.

[ss002d6252]

On 17/08/2019 at 12:22, laughton said:

One question always raises another, as I now wonder why the CWGC lists the RMLI CSMs as "NAVY" if the left the ADMIRALTY on 29 April 1916 (LLT Link)? Tradition?

I thought that it was simply a secondment to Army control for day to day purposes, rather than them leaving the control of the Admiralty.

 

Craig

[laughton]

Dumb Canadian! What the LLT really says without my interpretation:

 

Quote

The Division transferred from the authority of the Admiralty to the War Office on 29 April 1916 and was redesignated as the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division on 19 July 1916.

 

I had already been corrected on this elsewhere.

[Keith_history_buff]

If you were a Royal, and were not in one of the units of the Royal Naval Division, you would still be spelling it as "Sergeant". I have yet to come across the other type of spelling in Admiralty records in relation to the men of the Royal Marines.

[Keith_history_buff]

Their pay would be from the Admiralty, and whilst those in units of the RND would have been under the authority of the War Office from 1916 onwards, their ranks/ratings and associated rates of pay would be as per Admiralty orders, be it a Sergeant in the Chatham Battalion or a Petty Officer in the Anson Battalion. 

Here is a link to advise as to the rate of pay of a Sergeant in the RMA, and the rate of pay of a Sergeant of the RMLI as at October 1914. This is courtesy of a similar question that was answered by Horatio2 6+ months ago
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/91911378

[Keith_history_buff]

Those two battalions of Royal Marines in the RND were but a fraction of the overall strength of the Corps of Royal Marines.

[Matlock1418]

 

On 09/06/2019 at 21:18, Uncle George said:

Major Barnes. An Honorary Major.  I did some research on the good Major which ended up on ‘Lives of the First World War’. So now it’s not accessible. 

Uncle George - Fear not! - Yes it is now is - your work [apparently it might seem yours - Kevin76969's and Yvonne27542's anyway] is now accessible as a Life Story at:

Robert Money Barnes

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/204674 

I know it probably not perfect but if you want to Print or Save as PDF most info then right click on any white part near the timeline [or in tab], select Print and follow the Print or Save as PDF options given as 'Destination'.  You may have to select individually print/save for individual Stories within his LS.

Your stuff / hard work does seem to be out there after all.

:-) M

Edited 12 March , 2020 by Matlock1418

[Uncle George]

34 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Uncle George - Fear not! - Yes it is now is - your work [apparently it might seem yours - Kevin76969's and Yvonne27542's anyway] is now accessible as a Life Story at:

Robert Money Barnes

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/204674 

I know it probably not perfect but if you want to Print or Save as PDF most info then right click on any white part near the timeline [or in tab], select Print and follow the Print or Save as PDF options given as 'Destination'.  You may have to select individually print/save for individual Stories within his LS.

Your stuff / hard work does seem to be out there after all.

:-) M

Thanks - that’s good to know.

 

 

(signed)

 

Kevin76969 (sic)

[Dave1418]

Interested to see that the CWGC have some WW2 graves listed in Maidstone cemetery with the J instead of the G.