Wgr Frank Keogh - died in Miltary Hospital, not on CWGC

[SteveMarsdin]

I hope someone can help.

I've found most of the names (i.e. established a link with Market Weighton) on our memorial roll of honour. One name that I haven't signed off is Frank Keogh. A Frank Keogh joined the Wagoners Special Reserve in January 1914 (attested in Market Weighton). His MIC seems to show he was killed 15/11/1918 (see below).

Can anyone explain ?

[Dave Phillips]

All I can find on Ancestry:

Name: Frank Keogh

Birth Date: abt 1875

Date of Registration: Dec 1918

Age at Death: 43

Registration district: Beverley

Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding

Volume: 9d

Page: 243

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Dave, The papers I have all point to him been around 35 or 36 in 1918 but I can't find any other military records other than the Wagoners Roll and MIC. From his apparent background it is quite possible that ages aren't accurate (either death or others or all).

[Waggoner]

Steve,

There is an active thread about the wagoners on the BMF. I have posted your request there. Hopefully something will turn up.

All the best,

Gary

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Gary,

I know the thread in question (I'm SPM on the BMF) but didn't think of posting the question there !!!

At some stage I might get the death certificate that Dave found; if it is the same man he might be a 'non-commemorated" case

[Waggoner]

Steve,

I always like to spread the word around. You never know what might pop up!

All the best,

Gary

[Dave Phillips]

Looking at the MIC it does not necessarily suggest he was killed. Does it say "Dec" or 'deceased, on that date ( more likely disease)?

Also note the little "x" next to the date seems to match the little "x" at the bottom with the ref. "E.F./9/4114", whatever that means! The ink and handwriting also seem to match.

Dave

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Dave,

I read it as "decd" for deceased. I suspect it is the same man as on the war mémorial as he"s the only one of that name I can find with a link to Market Weighton. It may well be that he died outside of and not related to his service; memorial's not having the strict criteria of the CWGC.

I know little about MICs and am hoping someone can tell me what the initials and numbers mean which might shed some light on Mr Keogh"s service

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Gary,

I always like to spread the word around. You never know what might pop up!

I only joined before Christmas, after reading numerous recommendations on this forum. I hadn"t realised what an active forum the BMF is !!!!

[spof]

He isn't listed on SDGW so perhaps his is a post discharge death.

Most of the annotations are administrative codes whose meaning has long been lost. Ones that do tell us something are the ones next to the medals referring to KR 1743. This means the medals were unclaimed when they were mailed out to him or the next of kin given on his service record.

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Glen (IIRC !),

If it's the Frank Keogh I think it is, that would possibly tie in. He was raised by his grand-parents in Lancashire but sent to a reform school near Market Weighton (1901 census). Most of the inmates worked on the farm there, then other local farms. I think he then stayed in the area (or returned to the area) after his release; a Frank Keogh attests in the Wagoners in Market Weighton (01/1914), giving his birthplace as Liverpool.

I can't find his service record, only MIC, so I think I"ll need to obtain his death certificate !

[spof]

Do the AVLs survive for the area? The 1918 might be interesting.

Glen (Good memory!)

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Glen,

I don't think they do but I'll check

[SteveMarsdin]

I have finally got round to getting his death certificate. He died in the Military Hospital, Victoria Barracks, Beverley (now Morrisons !) of Pneumonia. Under occupation it states both Driver-ASC and Farm Labourer. His death is certified by the CMO at the Barracks, R. Hargreaves.

Unfortunately I still can't find his service record but given his place of death I still think there's a chance he may be case of non-commemoration. Any suggestions, other than AVL, as to where I might search next ?

[John_Hartley]

Steve

I think that's going to be very tricky. Without a service record, I don't see how you are going to evidence that he was serving at time of death. No current service, no CWGC commemoration.

John

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks John, that's what I thought. I'll keep digging though. I don't think he had any family and wasn't from East Yorkshire but I'd like to think he's not forgotten.

[CGM]

If he was still serving when he died there should be a Soldier’s Effects Record for him. This was the final reckoning of a soldier's pay and expenses at death.

From the NAM website:

The National Army Museum holds an extensive set of records relating to monies paid to the named relatives of deceased soldiers and those discharged insane. They do not give details of personal possessions of dead personnel. These are not currently available in the TSC, but a transcript is available for a charge of £10.25 from the Department of Archives, Photographs, Film and Sound. The charge is levied as they are stored off site from the main museum.

I will see if I can find past thread with more information.

CGM

[CGM]

See this link.

CGM

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks CGM.

[roughdiamond]

The LG prints under the heading "Soldiers and Airmens balances undisposed of" a "List of deceased Soldiers and Airmen who's Personal Estate is held for distribution amongst the Next-of-Kin or others entitled".

This https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31624/page/13260 from 31st October 1919 lists "Keogh. F., Dvr., R.A.S.C., £34. 7s. 11d.". The heading page is 13258.

The fact the Army was disposing of his assets, that there's no discharge date or SWB listing on his MIC or seperate SWB card and the fact his date of death is on his MIC suggests he Died in Service,

His "Date of entry therein" also means he was almost certainly a Regular or mobilised Reservist serving with 5th Div Resources Park according to his MIC, That would tie in with him enlisting Jan 1914.

There are only 2 x F. or Frank Keogh's with MIC's for ASC or RASC, the other enlisted 23/03/1915 and was discharged 30/08/1917 with "Sickness" http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?MS_AdvCB=1&db=MedalRolls&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=2&gss=ms_r_db&gsfn=frank&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=keogh&gsln_x=XO&dbOnly=_F8007A65%7C_F8007A65_x&_F00061C3=Army+Service+Corps&dbOnly=_F00061C3%7C_F00061C3_x&_F00061C3_x=1&uidh=qoe so it seems very unlikely the Army would be disposing of his assets.

Sam

[Sue Light]

I think it's inconceivable that he was anything other than a serving soldier at the time of his death. Dying of pneumonia in a small 'barrack' military hospital, just fifty beds at that time, indicates that he must have been locally employed in military service. I'm not sure though that makes it any easier to offer proof that will satisfy MOD.

Sue

[roughdiamond]

By Pneumonia, I take it we can infer Spanish Flu?

Sam

[CGM]

The National Army Museum has responsibility for assessing possible non-commemorated casualties now, having replaced the MOD.

I would think they are ideally situated to understand the significance of the Soldier’s Effects Records.

CGM

[centurion]

By Pneumonia, I take it we can infer Spanish Flu?

Sam

Quite likely but not necessarily so. There are quite a number of respiratory diseases were you can finally succumb to pneumonia which is what goes on to the death certificate. Spanish Flu must be high on the list of suspects but its only circumstantial without more information. His age would be one factor that would make SF less likely as deaths were greater amongst those of a younger age (some flus are like that).

[John_Hartley]

Steve

Taking on board the information from CGM and roughdiamond that there might be corroborative evidence in the possession of the NAM, I reckon this is definitely worth a punt. Do you want to want In From the Cold Project to handle it for you or will you do it yourself. If the former, I suggest a preliminary email to Terry Denham setting out the case and definitely pointing out to him that likely information already with the NAM will probably confirm him to be serving at time of death.

John