Househouse Battalion & the 2nd Life Guards

[phsvm]

I'm researching Archie Silver (b. 1891, Chilton, Berks) who attested in Abingdon in May 1916. I know he originally joined the 2nd Life Guards (number 3986) but moved to the Household Batallion at some stage (number 878). He died on 12 Oct 1917 at Poelcapelle.

I know the Household Battalion was made up of 1st and 2nd Life Guards and the Royal Horse Guards but I'm trying to confirm when Archie went to France.

The Diary of a Forgotten Battalion by Gerald Harvey states:

"On Friday, 1st September 1916, The Household Battalion formed at Hyde Park Barracks, under the wing of the Reserve Regiment of The 1st Life Guards. ..... Of the 84 Officers who eventually served in the new unit, 15 were 1st Life Guards, 11 were 2nd Life Guards,......
The new infantry battalion trained in Hyde Park and later in September, moved to camp in Richmond Park. Shortly after The Household Battalion entrained for France, on 8th and 9th November 1916, the Reserve of the Battalion moved from London to Combermere Barracks. Windsor, with the Reserve Regiment of The 2nd Life Guards. From here, drafts of over 2,000 men were sent out to the Western Front to replace casualties suffered by the Household Battalion during its 14 months of combatant service. ......"

Later on it states:

(3rd May and 12/13th May 1917)
...... The Household Battalion attacked on 3rd May. ......The Household Battalion won one Military Cross and nine Military Medals and forced the Germans out of Roeux at bayonet point. ..... cost The Household Battalion nine Officers killed and a total of nearly 500 casualties ..... The remnant moved to the cellars under the old city of Arras, ruined and bleak. They rested here for some days while their losses in manpower were made good by new faces - recruits from Windsor."

Does this mean that the 1st Life Guards went to France first and that none of the (former) 2nd Life Guards went out until May. In other words did Archie, who was in the 2nd LGs stay in England until sent as reinforcements in May. Or am I reading this wrongly?

[Gareth Davies]

The 1st Life Guards and the 2nd Life Guards went to France/Belgium on 7 Oct 14, both Regiments were in 7th Cavalry Bde in 3rd Cavalry Div.

The Household Battalion was formed in Knightsbridge on 1 Sep 16 as an Infantry Bn. There was only 1 Bn. More details are here: http://www.1914-1918.net/householdbn.htm

[phsvm]

That may be the case but my man didn't enlist until 1916 and I know he transferred to the Household Battalion when it was formed - he'd only enlisted 4 months before.

I'm not interested in the Life guards prior to them becoming the Household Battalion. What I need to know is whether he was in the first wave (of the Household Battalion) that went to France in November 1916 or as one of the replacements in May 1917.

[David_Underdown]

The service records for these men were kept separately from the main set of records, and now form series WO 400 at The National Archives. They have been digitised, and should be online within Discovery shortly. That should answer your questions when it becomes available.

[Gareth Davies]

That may be the case but my man didn't enlist until 1916 and I know he transferred to the Household Battalion when it was formed - he'd only enlisted 4 months before.

I'm not interested in the Life guards prior to them becoming the Household Battalion. What I need to know is whether he was in the first wave (of the Household Battalion) that went to France in November 1916 or as one of the replacements in May 1917.

With respect, that's not what you were asking in your original post.

When the Household Bn was formed, the Regts that the individuals came from ceases to be relevant. The Bn, which included men from the 1st & 2nd Life Gds, The Blues (the RHG), the Foot Gds, the Cavalry, the Line Infantry, and men who joined direct, deployed as a complete Bn. It went into the line in Dec 16 and was disbanded in Feb 18; this is the 14 month period you refer to in your original post during which over 2000 replacement men were sent out. These replacements came from the Reserve Bn which was based in Windsor.

Hopefully the Service Records will be able to help answer your question.

[phsvm]

With respect. I DID say he attested in May 1916 therefore there was no reason why I'd want to find out about bn movements prior to then. I appreciate that once he'd become part of the Household Bn then his former regiment was not relevent EXCEPT that I'm trying to understand who made up the Reserve Bn.

From my reading of the piece by Gerald Harvey it sounds as if he's saying that even when the 1st and 2nd Life Guards (and the others) were combined (for want of a better word) to form the Household Bn some of them became the Reserve Bn and reading on from that "the Reserve of the Battalion moved from London to Combermere Barracks. Windsor, with the Reserve Regiment of The 2nd Life Guards".that although they were now the Household Battalion, those that HAD been the 2nd Life Guards now made up the Reserve Regiment.

I may be reading this incorrectly and what he's actually saying is that those who made up the Household Battalion were all lumped (for want of a better word) together and those who he later refers to as "the Reserve Regiment of The 2nd Life Guards" were a completely different group of men (who had never been considered part of the Household Btn).

If this latter is the case then it would imply that my man went to France in Nov 16, not as one of the back up soldiers sent in May 1917 when numbers of the original Household Bn had been seriously depleted.

Gerald Harvey states that the original Household Bn was 900 strong. Archie SIlver was number 878 so presumably this means he was moved from the 2nd Life Guards to the Household Bn when it was formed in September 1916?

I'm on a VERY steep learning curve here so any help would be much appreciated.

[Gareth Davies]

phsvm - There are some really well informed people on here who are mines of information and are generally willing to help anyone out but if there is one thing that is likely to put them off it is someone who takes a demanding or confrontational approach. If you want to flatten your learning curve you might want to think about changing the tone of your posts. For example:

I'm not interested in the Life guards prior to them becoming the Household Battalion. What I need to know is whether he was in the first wave (of the Household Battalion) that went to France in November 1916 or as one of the replacements in May 1917.

Try writing something along the lines of 'what I am trying to work out' rather than your 'What I need to know'. Demands generally don't work on the GWF.

And for another example:

With respect. I DID say he attested in May 1916 therefore there was no reason why I'd want to find out about bn movements prior to then. I appreciate that once he'd become part of the Household Bn then his former regiment was not relevent EXCEPT that I'm trying to understand who made up the Reserve Bn.

I provided you some information you didn't need. If I was a new enquirer I would have been pleased to get something extra and I certainly wouldn't have used the confrontational form of words I have bolded above. That's the sort of thing that is likely to turn people off from helping you.

[Gareth Davies]

To answer some of your questions in post #6:

The 1st Life Guards, the 2nd Life Guards and the Royal Horse Guards (The Blues) all had reserve Regiments. The 1st LG Reserve were in London (Hyde Park), the 2nd LG Reserve were in Windsor and the Blues Reserve were in London (Regents Park).

When the Household Bn was formed a Reserve was also formed. This Reserve took its people from the same source as the deployable Household Bn. The Household Bn Reserve was based in Windsor alongside the 2nd LG Reserve Regiment. They were in theory separate entities but as they shared a barracks they no doubt shared some resources including manpower. So you are correct when you say "that those who made up the Household Battalion were all lumped (for want of a better word) together and those who he later refers to as "the Reserve Regiment of The 2nd Life Guards" were a completely different group of men (who had never been considered part of the Household Btn)."

This does not however confirm or deny when he went to France.

[phsvm]

Many thanks. I'm now clearer in my mind about various groups. Would the fact that Archie was number 878 indicate that if the Bn was originally made up of 900 men (if Gerald Harvey is correct) then Archie was probably in the original 900, rather than the reserve group so probably did go to France in Nov 16 rather than May 17?

[Gareth Davies]

I am sorry but I have absolutely no idea about Regimental numbers. My uninformed guess would be that you are quite probably correct but it is just that, a guess.

[Steven Broomfield]

I might have missed this along the way, but does he not have a Medal Index Card, which would probably give a date of entry into Theatre?

[keithmroberts]

Steven - it wouldn't normally for that date, he didn't attest until '16

Keith

[Steven Broomfield]

Ah, I see. Not my field of expertise.

[phsvm]

His medal card has survived but as Keith has mentioned, it doesn't give any dates.

The reason I know when he attested is because the Parish Clerk for the village he came from kept a very accurate diary and listed the day individual villagers 'joined up'. His entry reads - "31/5/1916 – Archie Silver enlisted Life Guards"

Many thanks for everyone's help.